I think many, if not most, people think of "aiki" as Aikido-like behavior; people considering it from an IP standpoint have a much more discrete meaning. In these conversations, rather than accept that people with a different frame of reference will necessarily apply meaning differently, and that most of them are unwilling to change their view of the term "aiki" over the internet, most IP advocates seem to often suggest there is something generally wrong with the understanding of the Aikido world today and give a somewhat formulaic/repetitive response arguing why. I find the points to be compelling on their own, but others do not. This comes up nearly any time someone describes their view of "aiki" (i.e. "I'm considering x, y, and z in my study of Aikido"). In those cases, "x, y, and z" are the intended points, but the threads get turned into reiterations of the same debates surrounding authenticity of the term aiki. I look at AikiWeb and see only a handful of people willing to participate, compared to what I remember from when I first joined several years ago, some of this may be coincidental, but I think most of it has to do with the tone generated by the IP discussions which is itself the product of personality interactions. I get the sense that this is because most people are tired of arguing over what "aiki" means and whether or not they have the right to use it in their posts...I get the sense that if non-IP folks stopped using the term altogether we'd see an improvement, but considering my view expressed in the first sentence, I don't see that happening any time soon.
...now off to read Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett.
It's fun and helps me to laugh at the human condition. Take care y'all.
p.s. Sorry, Chris, I confused your remark about accusations in my last response to you. It dawned on me just as I was falling alseep.
You do realize that the thrust of your argument assumes there is no right or wrong. Let me say it another way. What if the IP crowd was somehow proved to be exactly correct.
What would change? How would perception of the debate, change?
Aiki is either everything and anything to anybody based on individual teachers or it was and is in fact a given and teachable body technology with a history. Can a million people be wrong? Yes.
I would only add once again my OP and what I raised there. Real results
How and why is it that there were many giants in budo who talked about the exact... same... terminology? How is this even possible if there were not a specific teaching of it?
Why has the number of IP posters grown here?
Because the number of teachers encountering IP/Aiki have grown and there remains an almost 100% conversion rate. That means the counter argument for what aiki is in modern Aikido, continues to fail when tested.
THAT.....rate of results would make any industry BUT BUDO...sit up and take notice. Sadly, traditional Budo is one place where results are meaningless to many participants.
**This thread was meant to address specific points. It has gone completely off track and into the weeds discussing the discussion and the people behind the posts hasn't it.
Who did that Matthew? Who always does that?**
Again and to the point of the OP
I wanted people to address the actual results and testimonies
Group #1 The IP/aiki crowd
Ueshiba used specific terminology.
It wasn't his, it has a pedagogy (which in itself destroys the argument that it is singular to anyone's individual desires)
The terminology he used was well known for producing power
It existed in India, China and Koryu
It produces power today in those who know what to do with it.
Group #2 The modern aikido people
Defines aiki as evading/blending or anything their individual teacher said it was
Yet when asked, cannot explain what Ueshiba actually said and where it came form and what he did.
And explain why they have no unusual power.
Those who are very good in group #1 keep handing group #2 their ass. On top of that, they can define, explain, and perform what Ueshiba was doing and....they.... possess unusual power.
How does this keep happening?
What does that mean?
Why do the people who go out and feel those who are accomplished in IP/aiki change and adopt Ueshiba's style of moving and training, over and over?
Talking about why we keep talking about it
Discussing the discussion
Talking about the people and their personalities
Targeting ...yes...targeting individuals and what they charge
Talking about their personalities
HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OP