Thread: Vantage points
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:24 AM   #1
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Vantage points

I am choosing to reply here to an off topic post that appeared in the Aikido no Rentai thread so as not to derail the thread. Since Krystal was responding to Cady off topic and about IP, I thought I would put it here:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
The words you use here and in other posts (the one you referenced, for example) that give me real pause when discussing IP stuff are "precious", "patents and copyrights", and "proprietary". Those words when added to the IHTBF claim really smells bad to me, especially when I can't seem to get much substantial technical info (physics, biomechanics, definitions) about what is happening. The rancor between people discussing IP along with the whiff of profit motive keeps me firmly in the skeptic's camp.
Well I think your response here is a very fine case in point.
I have saved entire threads to track how they went down hill. I have shown some of them to Jun. Your's is another example:
  • You came in off topic
  • Stated some one's view smell bad (by default a negative insinuation)
  • Discussed the "wiff of profit" for IP folks, but not caring to mention the extortion rates of some Japanese teachers seminars (how does a flat fee of $5,000 plus first class air fair and hotels and food), and the money they charge for rank. Why aren't we discussing that? Would you like to name names? No? Then why point out us alone? Is there a reason?
  • You noted "rancor in IP discussions"
  • Where does it come from? Have you looked into it. Have you noted long threads and where the attacks begin?
  • What could trigger "rancor" in your off topic response to a thread discussing IP?

Vantage points
You stated
I intend to make an IP seminar next year, if not a couple. I will feel this for myself.
I prefer to rely upon a strong consensus from a large number of people who are also predominantly rational and trained in examining physical phenomena.
I am happy to be a data point, I am happy to give my most rational assessment of my experience, and I am thrilled to hear from others
I've read enough to agree that there is something worth looking at, questions need to be asked, explored and answered to the extent possible. I am not yet satisfied by other people's answers, or their questions, for that matter.
So from your vantage point:
1. You want to feel it for yourself. Good
2. You prefer to rely on a strong consensus. Okay.
My vantage point:
How does just under 100% Sound to you? That is what we are seeing as the "IP crowd. To put it another way, have you heard a bunch of people come on to the web and say "Ya, I can do that stuff?" I haven't! Have you heard a bunch of people say, we already do that? I haven't. Have you read or heard of a significant number of people stating something, anything... negative to counter the overwhelmingly positive feedback? I haven't.
What you have heard (if you are paying attention) is an incredible amount of people stating that they were impressed and were changing their practice....forever! And that they simply could not handle the IP teachers. It's here in writing.

Have you asked or looked into the feedback from the seminars? Behind the scenes, more and more high ranking teachers in aikido (including a life long friend of Doshu) have listened to the overwhelming evidence of their peers switching to this training. Why...hasn't the community at large looked into or noted the continuous stream of positive affirmations of those training IP?

Were the IP a new brand of car getting these kinds of positive results they would take over the market.

Your vantage point:
A side note. One projection of "dual opposing spirals" is a lissajous. It does not follow that a lissajous is necessarily a projection of "dual opposing spirals". My evidentiary standards are pretty high. All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.
My view:
Are your standards higher than 17 Shihan, 6 6th dans and 52 go dans and hundreds of others? And that is just with me. Now add those training with other IP guys. Perhaps-as a standard- a bit of research and review would help attain a more balanced view. Wouldn't that at least be more positive than talking about things smelling bad, a wiff or profit, and rancor?

As it is, the Lissajous curve has nothing to do with the body technology that was discussed By Morihei Ueshiba. And more interesting for me, is here again there is no mention of Ueshiba stating something that existed in the very arts he studied, and the classical arts he pointed to, instead we see a complete ignoring of that, and we segue into models for things you have no information or experience in. To equate the dual opposing spirals to a mathmatical curve, while ignoring the founders own statement about them, while ignoring their place in other arts, while openly not understanding them, and in the process ignoring hundreds of Aikido teachers testament to the validity of the very thing you are arguing against. High standards? This certainly doesn't seem a good strategy or approach to research.

Your vantage point:
I've gotten some response for expressing my discomfort with what seems like a profit motive. It is argued that the vast majority of aikido teacher teach for money, and that is certainly true. However, I have met few aikido teachers, and few martial arts teachers in general who use nondisclosure agreements and who forbid basic recording of their seminars. I have agreed a few times to not share the good and useful stuff I've learned in a class, but I dont really fully buy the whole secret art that is too deadly for mere folks can cause demonic health problems song and dance when the agreement is viewed under the spotlight of protecting paid access to a product provided by few individuals. Precious patented and copyrighted proprietary product, or a true return to real aikido? I dont know. I'm just uneasy with the tone of some of the discussion. The responses have not fully eased my mind.
My view:
So tell me. Can you think of anything positive to say about why someone would not produce video or want people to discuss the material?
Anything? Anything at all? Anything come to mind?

If the wiff of profit, profit as thee one and only motive, left a bad smell in your mind...How then, does someone answer your cry for more "products for sale" like video? It sounds like a "no win" set up to me.

1. Sagawa did not produce video and stayed in his own dojo.
2, I have not produced video and stayed in my own dojo for 22 years until I was asked- even chastised- to openly teach.
Can you find anything positive to say about those two examples? Anything? Anything at all?

Can we agree on this?

Choices for better discussions
We can agree to disagree
We can choose to be nice
We can choose to think the best of other peoples motives
We can choose not to assume that when other people do not agree with our way of thinking, that it isn't for negative reasons.
We can choose to ask instead of insinuate

You wanted to talk about IP. Okay, as far as IP
Can we do it without being angry?
Can we assume the best of our motives?
Can we acknowledge the forward progression of IP discussions on the web? How did these discussions start many years ago. It started with those doing IP/aiki being openly derided for stating that this work is different and is the foundation of aikido.
What Happened?
Every....single....Aikido teacher who went to test....failed.
To my knowledge just about every, single, Aikido teacher who went...switched.
Why isn't that mentioned?
For starters:
1. What does it mean, that this has and is... taking place over and over again?
2. What does it mean that it is routinely ignored in the discussion?

These are some pretty serious questions to ask, given that the success rates we are seeing are the result of OUR high standards and hard work.

I think we should begin by talking about those results and why hundreds of teachers (many who are members here who were openly against this) would switch their entire practice to include this. Isn't that a better tact then insinuating all sorts of negative motivations? I at least hope that as a discussion it can include a discussion...of those successes. Something else worth consideration is the fact that most of us who have met, have now become friends. I find that as fulfilling as the work itself.

Last edited by DH : 12-29-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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