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Old 12-25-2012, 08:04 PM   #71
Tom Verhoeven
Dojo: Aikido Auvergne Kumano dojo
Location: Auvergne
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 295
Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
No contradiction at all if you understand what we are saying about aiki - as been mentioned elsewhere by others, simply evading an attack was not what Ueshiba was renowned for and was not what gave him his power; anyone can do that. However, there are those that imply aiki is as simple at that; this approach and viewpoint is what is objectionable. As I said before, IMO evasion is not aiki, has nothing to do with aiki, and is nothing really special that can be found in all martial arts and other athletic activities. If others choose to not look at it that way and are not interested in other viewpoints of aiki, that is fine, but if they present evasion as the one and only aiki, then we will feel obligated to disagree (with detail supporting our position) and let others know that there is another viewpoint for their consideration.

What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki.

External jujutsu movements are valid martial movements and they can be done with the power of aiki or without; the movement is not the source of aiki.

Not true, no objection to discussing - evasion and other external movements can be, and should be, part of an Aikido curriculum, but they are just waza.

Absolutely agree with that statement - and that is why we are having a difficult time expressing points because each side hears the term Aiki and applies their own meaning to it; which does not provide for common ground

Never said they could not - a good example of the no common ground for discussion point mentioned previously.

This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.
And after it was introduced, it was the IP/IS group who started to counterargument it.
That answers this point;
"What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki".

The argument was never that evasion is the same as Aiki.

If I would use an evasive move then it could be called for lack of a better word an Aiki evasion (in my previous post I in fact only used the term to make sure we were talking about the same subject).
I disagree that anyone can do this. Learning to evade and to apply a technique takes a long time to learn properly.

As for waza - for the inexperienced waza is mostly form, for the experienced all waza contain / are based on Aiki.

As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.