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Old 12-04-2012, 03:19 PM   #307
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

You can choose to reply or not but, how does the SIMPLE question of , "Is aikido a clash of forces" turn into a battle between alleged Einsteins and Hawkins of martial arts. Or how the language you are using helps to clarify a question where a simple yes or no will suffice? Also and if a yes or no, state because, "in my personal experience so and so has happened". Not try to compare the human body to pair of 'scissors" or other "mechanical" paradigm, but human to human( and alive human to human would be best, and if not someone who actually felt the no longer present party and can make a comparison, just like Ellis Amdur's "it had to be felt" prerequisites). You know apples to apples, and then why does this apple stand out for a mysterious reason. I think this thread would be better served.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
When I use the term I mean to distinguish the contractile connective tissue forming a matrix around other tissues-- including all muscle fiber bundles -- where it is dubbed myo-fascia. The clinical use of the term to refer to the complex formed with the muscle fiber bundles should not cause difficulty with the basic understanding of the anatomy of the fascia as different from the tissues it forms and envelope, such as muscle fiber bundles.

We are in agreement. The fascia -- considered in isolation from the striated muscles it envelops -- acts like smooth muscle -- oxytocin-responsive and all.

Considered in isolation -- if it is not a form of smooth muscle tissue-- what would you call it ? As to its being or behaving as smooth muscle tissue it is a distinction without a difference. I am less interested in names than behaviors. Walk like a duck. Quack like a duck. Not a dog, cat or chicken. Small goose, maybe -- waterfowl, definitely.

That is not established -- though it is plainly a complex of tissues involved -- the contribution of the smooth muscle behavior of the fascia to the problem is not ruled out. The complex interaction with the muscle tissue proper and reflexive systems give rise to the documented behaviors or effects that I take interest in for our subject matter -- but on the points of influence that seem to control in those issues -- also seem to have relevance to the trigger point phenomenon from the same suite of causes.

No, I am distinguishing them anatomically whereas you conflate them clinically -- which is just fine for clinical use.

The striated muscle tissues interleave with the fascia -- which has this smooth-muscle behavior -- including the hormonal sensitivities -- which we apparently agree on -- (plus the study noted above).

That is not established. Perhaps, perhaps not. The complex interrelation and the undeniable postural source of most myofascial pain indicates a connection between adverse structural position and dynamic compensations that may overstimulate tissues. The positional fixation combined with the underlying tonic vibration or stress oscillation involved in stayinhg dynamically stable in such a bad posture -- that is exactly like hand-clenching from repetitive grip stress of a tool, but just occurring in and shortening sections of the muscle tissues (possibly from the Cinderella effect) rather than the gross shortening of the forearm muscles that clench the hands involuntarily. These connections are plain and highly suggestive and have not been ruled out.

... It is interesting that we can observe the "trigger point" conditions stemming from fascia not enveloping muscle. All tendons also have a fascial matrix that is not readily distinguishable from that of the muscle tissues to which they connect -- by means of that fascia. Fasica is in a sense the substrate of both . That logically suggests that it is the common tissue -- the fascia -- that is the predominating element in trigger points.

Moreover, the afferent effect of the pathological myofascial bundle in the local twitch response spinal reflex -- suggests that there is a relationship between these as pathological examples of structures with similar reflexive behavior and triggers that arise in normal development (like muscle spindles for the stretch reflex and its inverse reflex mediated by Golgi tendon organs) These spinal reflexes are of great interest and application to our subject matter - I use them -- and provoke them in people all the time.

We are in agreement and I did not say they were -- it is simply that those are differential identifying criteria for a tissue that behaves like smooth muscle ...

It is the biomechanicals effects and causes that are of interest -- but in the context of considering fascia in martial applications Ueshiba's sense of budo as "love" and the "spirit of loving protection" to ignore the involvement of oxytocin -- the love hormone -- is to ignore some obvious evidence or directions for inquiry from a seemingly knowledgeable source.

IOW -- you just described plucking it like a fat guitar string. It is the effective influence of the resulting vibration on the systems in question that are of interest and the local twitch response is one more among the spinal reflexes that are mediated by such methods of striking, plucking or vibrating in another way. They do -- interesting -- things to people.

Pressure versus vibration. Since vibration is useful in such therapeutic massage or manipulations -- as is pressure -- and since vibration in tissue is just an oscillation of pressure-- I am not sure the distinction is that significant.

FWIW -- and in appreciation of this post -- it is worth commenting that this is the kind of engagement by which things can advance usefully. In budo, debate should be like training -- quite pointed, -- challenging, skeptical, but unmistakably polite and relating relevant information directly and carefully to the points put forward. It is much better than people simply comparing the intellectual equivalents of their martial style badges or belt colors as though those proved or disproved anything on what really matters.

Many thanks, Josh.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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