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Old 12-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #14
Dojo: Kiku Matsu/Chicago, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 23
Do symbol Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Check the type of training that a fighter undergoes champ or not champ this training is not unusual and is the type of preparation required also in serious MMA i guess
btw it's also fun to watch

It is clear that in aikido we are not routinely prepared for this type of demand or opponent
We are just not used to that speed and to dodge stuff within milliseconds
It may help to be able to for between slow and flabby yokomenuchis and gunshots there are many middleways

So #1 you'd need to include some of that workout. If u can't with a partner get a ball and with a not too long rope make it dangle from somewhere. Punch it uniquely with the intention to

1) dodge it when it bounces back and is one inch from you (as if it were a jab) do not doge from far away learn to dodge from close quarters
2) duck and dodge (as if it were a hook)
3) learn to step away sideways ultrafast
4) learn to change direction suddenly as you step away (now u see me now u dont)
5) learn to step away backward ultrafast (after you have dodged) so to take away the distance
6) learn to get in as you keep dodging and you advance
7) go in circles around it as you hit (or miss) it and it challenges you bouncing in unpredictable manners

If you realize that after about 60 seconds of this you're almost spent you won't withstand an attack by a skilled puncher. Your goal is to be able to do that for at least 30 minutes (at a fast pace no leisure) within 9 months if you want to stand with some leisure 3 full minutes of a very bad punching attack. You can do it if you train at that at least 2 hours a week (you go to the dojo any other day? Cool u have time)

Once prepared athletically and with better reflexes if facing this attack do not try just to keep the distance. He might reach you in an instant for fighters actively pursue you

Dodge by ducking instead as you advance as if to clinch
Kkeep your hands on your face for you will be welcomed with anything and plenty of it
Protect the tip of your chin because a hook or uppercut there may knock your out because his force sums up to yours (your advancing)

When you duck try to see if you can straighthen up with the right timing namely close to his body and having both his arms at your side. Push him and grab that arm. His other arm may hit you he has 2 and uses them without qualms
Grin and bear it for what you want is a hold of one of his arms

If he evades (and he certainly may) you escape too. Step away man for he will be back hittin u in less than a second!!
Repeat ur attempt

If you manage to grab his arm arnlock. An effective armlock may end the story
Or if you can kotegaeshi (chances of shiho nage are minimal)

Don't go for his legs. As you try to grab them he may take the distance out of you with one mere step back and you will be unbalanced grabbing flies
Don't try to kick his legs wont do much to fighters and may be successful once in 100 times provided ur opponent has not badly beaten your face already 99 times as you tried (instance here and keep in mind that the champ there never punched though the face of Inoki was fully exposed and within reach almost always for he knew it was not a fight but a show for fun)

Just my penny you may have better ideas of course
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Nobody wants to be in a fight
But then also taking aikido classes becomes questionable if one does it imagining never to meet a fight. Actually not even boxers or MMA guys plan to go into street fistfights

One may argue that one practices aikido for other purposes that are not martial of course
But why dealing with tantos and swords and yokomenuchis to develop a spiritual level when also meditation does that without bothering with that stuff?

1) after all Aikido is a martial art too is it?
2) not only aikido but also being athletically prepared for facing a skilled puncher has educational purposes that go beyond a fight
Budo is budo

The average street attacker is normally totally naive and utterly unprepared so you are right so you wont even need aikido for that lad

It all boils down to this do you want to practice your martial art having in mind a serious scenario or do you prefer practicing having in mind an unlearned challenger? i judge none i am just addressing the concerns of those who prefer training have in mind a different scenario

So my point is simple and practical if there is somebody interested in knowing how to deal with the scenario of a skilled puncher (and we have threads on the forum that wondered about this) the answer is that to be ready to deal with skilled punchers it is as simple as this namely you need to introduce into your workout the routines that skilled punchers use to make their ways through punches (#1 to #7)

If one prefers a more practical aikido not necessarily for fighting but because one enjoys the feeling of pushing one's limits somehow with athletical preparation then including part of a fighter's workout may be a great addition to your weekly routines

Of course you could also add basketball and pingpong and surfing and tennis and equestrian routines but would that make sense in a martial context?

If you jog 45 minutes thrice a week that means you will stand 3 minutes in a tight fight because a tight fight is not about a constant aerobic effort but about yanking dodging skipping jumping turning lowering evading in a relentless mix of sudden aerobic and anaerobic thrusts
If you may enjoy being prepared for aikido in that scenario include #1 to #7 in your routines

If you dont enjoy it or you are positive it will never happen or you find no educational purpose in adding that it is quite fine

ps "going animal" against a competent attacker will terminate the defender in a few seconds because the defender will react wildly mostly without guards and meeting up ultrafast punches on eyes teeth jaw lips and nose
this would knock the defender out almost immediately
I think you're missing the point. If you pay close enough attention, which is only possible with an attitude of compassion towards an attacker, when your whole body/mind is no longer consumed with the preconception of the attack as if it's all about you, the attacker's feelings become apparent. From this perspective it becomes easier to predict what the attacker is going to do, and is even possible to know what the attacker will want to do before the attacker is aware of these intentions. In combat this gives you a jump on the attacker.

You're absolutely right about the physical limitations a skilled puncher places on a defender. What if you expand the perspective to include the ki limitations a skilled puncher places on a defender? I'm not talking about magical mystical ki, just the change in flow of energy over time. If you want to be academically strict: a complex model of tensors, or force vectors changing over time. When a body starts to move, imagine tracers following all the possible paths of fists and feet and elbows, and there will be hot spots in all the possible changes over time, and there will also be cold spots. Good taisabaki maneuvers nage's body into Uke's cold spots (low energy), and Uke into Nage's hot spots.

Humans are predator animals, and our bodies (eyes) and minds are naturally inclined to forward-focus on a cone shaped zone of opportunity. Zen, and Aikido require a more circumspect perspective. If you look at all the hot spots created by the tensors you would trace out if a boxer went step by step through every variation of every punching attack combination (maybe thousands), this would (I hypothesize) be a superset of the actual hot spots of things that work when Nage is performing good blending taisabaki. These hot spots will reflect the confidence Uke has in particular attack paths. Uke will have to zero in on Nage's perceived weaknesses and execute on them in space and time. Now what if you take into account that Uke's ability to perceive Nage's "tell" for each weakness is different (how close is the tell to the cone of opportunity perception for how long)? Those weaknesses that are easier to spot will be hot spots, and the ones that are harder to spot will have lower probability of success. Magic has sleight-of-hand, but Aikido has sleight-of-whole-body.

This takes the hypothetical martial art up from a contest of strength, speed, and ki, into a contest of minds. when I watch the video clip you've posted, maybe it's me, but I see losers taking a beating because they've subconsciously or by default decided to stand there and take a beating. Maybe they were a contender for a while, but something happened and they got into a disadvantaged position. That's sad, but that's what a purely martial art will look like when one otherwise well-matched opponent has a mental edge. The dominant guy today will be the guy standing there taking a beating tomorrow, when for whatever reason the other guy got an edge. This is the precipice from which the spiritual focus of Aikido becomes clear.

If you are determined to become dominant on speed and power alone, the guy with better Ki will come along and own you. If you are determined to become dominant on speed, power, and Ki alone, the guy with Aiki (practicing fighting art like Penn and Teller practice magic) will come along and own you.

Of course I can talk about it, but I can't (consistently, yet) do it. That's why I train. Thinking about it before doing it is initially a weakness because it requires me to expend mental energy and time to execute choices and actions which coud and should be effortless, but if I practice like a musician, when I get fluid and musical with it, I will have mastered a higher art.

Let's say someone masters the kind of training regimen you're alluding to. They will possibly have some additional mechanical variations on techniques, but that amounts to little more than personal style I suppose. They will certainly become more fluid in the motions required to face the kind of challenges represented by the training, but when that's exercised in real contest, what is the dominance, the extra milliseconds, the extra power good for? Either they give the other guy a break because it doesn't cost them anything in terms of risk or actual loss, or maybe they use it for a moment of introspection to feel good about themselves, or maybe they spend it vindictively. Maybe they let it look like the first case, when they are really leading the other guy into another attack by projecting a false "tell" of vulnerability so they can go around again. An old man, weaker of muscle, but stronger of mind can make a younger and more physically powerful opponent beat himself up.

So, to wind this all up, what I'm trying to say is that training hard for physical and technical prowess is great, but if you really want to be good, also master the kind of Aiki taught in Daito Ryu. Also please practice with the purpose of Aikido, because without the intention to bring harmony to conflict it's not really Aikido. Aikido seeks to create mental space in a conflict where ethical decisions and actions can be effective. Keep it "real," but make it *good*... at least that's what *I* train for, and what I think needs to be promoted.
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