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Old 11-26-2012, 12:44 PM   #138
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Personally, I think this post is going to be way to long, but I see no way around it.

Here is what you said Dan.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Here again, Chris. Somewhat edited

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (soft power-not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, in order to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in.
Here we have an opening statement. from it we learn that you believe Ueshiba was focused on power. We also know that you believe it to be a "soft-not normal" power. We also know that you believe much of this power is derived from solo training and that this power is a "central pillar" to the "aiki" phenomenon. In order to access this power, you say there must be a "neutral".

This is the opening statement, so this is sort of the place for talk like this. However it begs us to ask these questions:

1. What kind of power is it that you believe Ueshiba was focused on? What is "soft-not normal" about this power.

2. What kind of "solo training" are you speaking of, and why is it important?

3. What is this "neutral that you're talking about?

Quote:
The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. This occurs first by generating power from dantian in opposing forces, and then manipulating them. That is the floating bridge. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior, who might have the capacity to enter you, you then have management within and movement to deflect forces.
I'm not sure, but I believe you are finishing up your opening statement here. Here you tell us that you believe the more developed you are the more some kind of force cannot "enter in" because you change your "supported surface". You go on to say that change in your "supported surface" is done by generating power from your "dantian", this force comes in the form of "opposing forces".

This makes one ask:

1.What kind of force is going to "enter in", and where is the force "entering"?

2. What do you mean by supported surface, and what does "changing" that surface mean?

3. What do you mean when you use the word "dantian"?

4. What do you mean by "opposing forces"?

Quote:
Management of forces
Inside of you
Management first being inside yourself by standing. Learning to engage and manage opposing forces inside of yourself. Thus Ueshiba, when asked what is aiki getting down and drawing a circle and stating it was opposing forces inside a circle...inside of you. This goes from simple models to higher level models. All of which are hinged upon In/yo. Without a balance of forces you have athlectic frames and single force vectors; Jujutsu.

Outside effects
Deflection, projection, absorption
Here is where the form of writing you choose suggests you are making an explanation. You state that you must "stand" and learn how to "manage opposing forces inside of yourself". Then you use Ueshiba's name, and say that he drew a circle and said that was opposing forces. Then you say that there are different models of this all relating to In/yo. With out balance of force you have athletics and "single force vectors" and "Jujutsu".

This is just another statement and still makes one ask the questions:

1. What are teh forces you are managing "inside yourself"?

2. What are these other models that you speak of, how do they relate to "In/yo"?

3. What "forces" are you "balancing" and why does lack of ability to "balance" them create athletics and Jujitsu?

Quote:
Deflection
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move naturally. Moving *away* from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement, that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on. So, in/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.
Here you say that "deflection" can create "aiki", but cannot be done with natural movement. The un-natural movement you suggest is done by creating a "supported neural tangent point" that is supported by the "dantian". This creates a balanced state. You state that "in/yo" creates a state within you that makes a "continuous flow of tangents outside of you, that never allows force on you." Then you say without internal management of "in/yo" inside of you there is no "aiki".

This is just a very long an deceptive statement. I use the word deceptive because the allusion you are using with your chose of writing form suggests explanation, yet there is none. Simply more statements that leave us asking basically the same questions we've had since to opening statement.

We still don't-
1. Know what you mean by force.

2. Know what you mean by "dantian".

You've also given us some new questions to ask here:

1. What is "supported neural tangent point"?

2. What do you mean by, "continuous flow of tangents outside of you" and how does that, "never allows force on you." and what kind of "force" isn't it allowing?

Quote:
Were one to understand Ueshiba's spiraling movement, one would then see the source of "elbow power" and why the forces from the hand are not the same as the forces from the elbow. This, in turn, also creates aiki and devastating punches-as one. Moreover, it creates aiki on any body surface that is touched without the practitioner changing his essential movement on contact. Of course he can change it at will, but it is important to realize that aiki is being created without his thought being attached to anyone or any force. There is no joining of center to center, or any time gap to make something happen by moving your insides as an after effect of joining. A process, is a process. After effect processes may be okay for dojo waza; they will get you nailed in a fight or killed with weapons. It is better to have a method of movement that is proactive all the time. When one thing moves, everything moves, and that "everything" is sophisticated, and automatic. This is why Ueshiba stated That with aiki, you exert your will on others and make them do what you want. It was never some course, bully boy pushing his weight around idea. It was a dominating, and then peaceful sort of *happening* to those who tried to put force into you. Sort of like being a benevelent 600 lb Gorilla in the room.
I'm not going to attempt a summery here, because this is simply one large statement. You are mostly expressing that you feel the kind of power you get from what you're doing is very "devastating" and that it makes you like a "benevolent 600 lb Gorilla".

Quote:
Projection
Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devastatingly effective. Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. It may expand outward in 360 degrees with thejoining of expanding tissue and the use of bows- corkscrewing or it may be focused to a point, in conjunction with the use of the dantian/mingmen and kua, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point suppressing or dampening all vectored resistance. This gives the person a feeling of being smothered, and also of you supposedly "reading" their responses and being "ahead of them" even though you really haven't dedicated any energy or focus to that model. This can also be a non static ever fluid state. Once again this movement is best when generated first automatically and then with focus.
Here again, you make a several statements. Not answering any of our previous questions. You do use some new terms, making us wonder:

1. What do you mean when you say "expanding tissure"?

2. What do you mean when you use the words "dantian/mingmen", and "kua", applied in a "rotating tangent"?

Quote:
Absorption
This is the above in an opposite tract. It requires somewhat of a leading aspect toward you that is then deflected off as well. I am not a fane of leading in as much as deflecting off. Absorbing is a neat trick to show someone in a dojo, not a good idea with a high level person.

All of the above has many aspects of additional movement in opening and closing the body, spiral movement through dantian that brings the overall effect *off the charts* in trying to track the many different "aiki's" that are possible in using the body in a myriad of ways to manage force. This is too complicated to cover in written form.
Again more statements.

Quote:
Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me
Aiki and yin/yang. Where is yin and yang?
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
Here is what I assume is an unsighted quote. And some more statements.

We still don't know what the duel opposing spirals are. What they are made of. Where or what they are spiraling on/in/around. What forces it is that you are balancing "inside of yourself".

Quote:
The balance of force cannot be just a circle. That can make you stable and strong, but it is -in a way- a lower aspect of high level work.

Since it created power and deflection people can play with it for decades and stop there, and get the job done. But *one point* is really only a beginner step.
A fluid balance of force in spiral energy is far more sophisticated, damaging and deflecting at any point in the body. This is why Ueshiba said the mysteries of aiki are revealed in them.
More statements, and more aggrandizement.

Quote:
Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?
More statements, aggrandizement and more words used that we don't share common understanding of.

Quote:

Beyond the physical
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge Aikido should be known for. The agonizing amount of solo work involved "eating bitter before you can taste the sweet" becomes a familiar and intimate partner. The grueling crucible of harnessing power, and being able to deliver it, while choosing to hold back is the foundation for spiritual growth in withholding and controlling that power against an opponent.
Aggrandizement.

Quote:
So first we have mind/body in solo training discipline, then we have it in active involvement with others we can harm.
This is yet another aspect of Aikido that I greatly...greatly...admire. It is hard to withhold your hand from an adversary, but harder still from a junior or someone challenging your skill. Connect with someone you can easily dominate, but holding back while delivering governed force levels either with aiki or with power, to match their level. This requires strictly monitored self-control. That control, changes you.
I now have met so many capable men and women who were drawing to the art for this reason as well. It gives us a lifetime to experience that forging of spirit/mind/body.

Where is power...aiki?
I had a recent encounter with a 90 year old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to once again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again, commensurate with solo training, and using the *power* to make aiki. Power must exist as a support or everything else fails and you cannot manage a balance of force within, or sustained contact points without, in order to create aiki.

That said, it was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force that was Ueshiba's aiki. His constant admonitions were of possessing power as a killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and that practice and hone that control. An old saying goes "If I raise my hand. I withdraw my temper. If i raise my temper, I withdraw my hand."
There is a conundrum to Aikido and really many high level arts, that can feed us for the rest of our lives.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go somewhere else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. What we are going to force teachers to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. As the recent Daito ryu shihan stated in his Aikido Journal article "most of the Shihan in the arts are simply not capable of aiki." Of those who are out teaching publicly, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki, the Ueshiba way, and those who can't handle them.
I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. I believe we are about to create a whole different landscape.
Dan
I can't really break this one up very well. It's more statements and aggrandizement. There are also several allusions to a self-belief that you know what Ueshiba and other great martial artists were saying.

That took some time and space. But now I can be 100% certain that you haven't answered my original question:

"What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?"

You did make lot's of statements, allusions, unsighted quotes and references, you also did lot's of aggrandizing for what you believe. But you didn't explain one thing. You most certainly didn't andwer my questions:

""What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?"

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