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Old 10-23-2012, 03:54 PM   #272
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I will try to outline what I think in more detail tomorrow when I can get to a computer. This is from my phone.
I hardly think telling.... me...I am lecturing on MY version of aiki, when I am using Ueshiba's words and exercises in proper context is correct. At least my efforts are cogent, have historical precedent, are logical and can be explained, demonstrated to produce power in anyone who does them....thus can be taught, and I have a thousand witnesses.

Thus far our detractors have produced nothing to match the above, and no person who is able to cancel out, much less absorb what we claim Ueshiba was doing. Which leaves me wondering why we are even having a debate in the first place. I am being polite enough to try and explain what Ueshiba was in fact doing to those who have no comparable power, explanation of or method of their own tbat produces the unusual power he was noted for. Instead they point to their teachers and to stances and techniques. None of which the founder EVER gave credit to. What he did give credit to...they self admittedly cannot explain.
Oh well.
Dan
Who is detracting what from whom? Certainly I'm interested in what you are doing and have no intention to discredit it. I think it most likely you are the real deal (IHTBF to be sure though, right?). The quote used a word in Japanese that could have all kinds of meaning, as a principle of someone else's concept of AIKI. Do you know what he meant by that principle?
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Quote:
The founder of AIKIDO, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, spent many years adapting techniques from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu and other martial arts (1) to embody the principle of AWASE (2).
As far as I know, this is an unsupported idea. There idea that Ueshiba's aikido came from "other martial arts" is rather, well, wrong.
I added the numbers:

1. The idea has been supported, even by Dan Harden.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I mean let's face it, he came from an informal Itto ryu and Jikishinkage ryu background into watching/ possibly training (I'd bet on it) informally in TSKSR and KSR and Yagyu. No one is EVER going to mistake Itto ryu's approach for Shinto ryu.
How much would you have bet on Osensei training in these other arts?

2. What is the principle of the broad term "awase" that David Alexander is talking about? Has any been made attempt to find out?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ya don't think he picked up some things? Continued to develop? So even if he picked up one principle...cough. With all that exposure that's it...ONE...are you kidding me....What was he, blind?
So when Osensei described his training as "A forging (tanren) of one's own mind (kokoro), the body and the ki that connects them, bringing all three simultaneously into harmony with the workings of the universe and all things" what principle was involved? Bear in mind that the original Japanese uses "musubu" 結ぶ for "connect" and I took no liberties in translating "chowa" 調和 as "harmony". Awase 合わせ is a broader term and, for example, could even include the reigi in the dojo. Why spend all that time on tanren, forging the body if the principle is just pre-emptive movement?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aiki and awase
Aiki as a concept prior to awase is for building a bujutsu body. Noted by Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo, Tokimune, Tohei, Shirata, And many ICMA masters as well.
The dynamic balance of forces within you creates the immovable body that is placed in a -theoretically- invincible position, which is aided *by* that immovable body in motion. This is accomplished partly through other causal effects; like lack of slack leaving no telegraphing, and neutralization of forces creating movement and cancellation of resistance in an opponent not otherwise capable of being achieved through normal motion and a normal body type... which leads to a more fully realized concept of.... awase.
So what are you saying Alexander Sensei meant by awase? Are you just using Mark's "modern aikido" version? Being faster than the other guy, leading etc while using conventional forces?

Regards

Carl
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