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Old 10-20-2012, 10:09 AM   #157
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hello Fred,

With respect, I do understand the nature of the counter arguments. Let me sum it up:

People who have provided no research, no evidence, no far ranging experiences telling me I am wrong in regards to Ueshiba's aiki.
Mark, please understand that it was not about your concept of "Osensei's Aiki". You were told you were wrong about claiming David Alexander's position was Awase = Aiki and you actually were wrong about that and Aikido not being adapted (in addition to Daito Ryu) from other martial arts. You were given evidence on Kashima Shinto Ryu for a start. Here's some more:

From Meik Skoss

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Shortly after I first raised these questions, in 1978 or `79, I visited the dojo of the late Koichiro Yoshikawa, 64th headmaster of the Kashima Shinto-ryu. He very graciously answered many questions about the history and techniques of the ryu. Moreover, he showed me a registry of the people who had entered the Kashima Shinto-ryu and performed keppan (lit., "blood seal," signing the enrollment register and sealing it with one's own blood as an earnest of one's sincerity and serious intent) dating from before World War II. Guess what, sports fans? One of the names in the register was that of Morihei Ueshiba, along with that of Zenzaburo Akazawa, his deshi. I was told that a number of people at the Kobukan, including Ueshiba, studied for a period of several years. Once again, when I brought up the subject of Kashima Shinto-ryu and its influence on aikido, several aikido people, including one of the most senior instructors at the Aikikai, assured me I was mistaken. The only rejoinder I could make was that: a) I can read, and b) I saw the register with my own eyes (one can dispute with one's teachers and seniors in English without seeming impertinent, but it's almost impossible to do so in a Japanese context). Later, I mentioned all of this to Stan Pranin, publisher of Aiki News, and he has since established this and many other hitherto previously unpublished details of Morihei Ueshiba's training in the classical martial arts and the influence of the koryu upon the development of modern aikido. A great deal more work, however, remains to be done.
And

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The omote no tachi is comprised of twelve techniques performed with straight bokuto, as though in armor. The first of these, ichi no tachi, is almost identical to an exercise of the same name taught by Morihiro Saito. Ni no tachi of Kashima Shinto-ryu bears several elements in common with Saito's training sequence, as does san no tachi, but there are a number of differences as well.
http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss3.html

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Now, these people point to a student of a student of Ueshiba for proof. I point to a student of a student of Ueshiba. Who trumps whom? Beyond the fact that each of us is merely pointing at external sources, in essence, these people absolutely must know what aiki is to emphatically state that I do not know what it is.
Proof of what? Who is saying you don't know what Aiki is? Saying or implying that is off the original topic and meaningless if someone hasn't trained with you. That goes both ways. Even if Alexander Sensei had actually said Awase = Aiki, we don't know how the description applies in practice and the word "Awase" is so broad, you'd have to look into the training methodology and ideally get hold of people to find out.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
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The founder of AIKIDO, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, spent many years adapting techniques from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu and other martial arts to embody the principle of AWASE.
As far as I know, this is an unsupported idea. There idea that Ueshiba's aikido came from "other martial arts" is rather, well, wrong.
For my part at least, I have been addressing your original post throughout. Also FWIW I think you probably do know what Aiki is.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let's go back to Ueshiba. Can these people replicate his skills? No. Can they replicate his knowledge of ancient martial concepts? No. Can they prove his training? No. Can they prove his practices? No. Which sort of puts us all on equal footing, no? What, then, gives them the foundation to state so emphatically that I am wrong? If we apply your logic to their arguments, they fall far short.

So, let's go back to the research and the experiences. I have done the research. They haven't. I have about 20 years of aikido training. I'm sure they do, too. I've trained with a variety of aikido shihan. I'm sure they have, too. I've trained with the IP/aiki exponents. They haven't.
Why does anyone have to be able to replicate Osensei's skills just to point out that David Alexander didn't say Awase = Aiki and that Aikido actually does have some influence from arts other than Daito Ryu? And these are a lot of assumptions about "these people".

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Shall we toss in the interviews with the students of the founder themselves who stated they didn't know what he was doing or how he did it? With Kono who said everyone was doing everything different? With Pranin stating that Ueshiba was rarely at Tokyo hombu, let alone teaching there. Etc, etc, etc.
Along with David Alexander, Stanley Pranin is also a student of Saito Sensei from the 70's. The evidence from Kono and Osensei rarely being in the Hombu is usually cited to authenticate the aikido in Iwama.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
So, it's fine for someone to state unequivocally that awase is the principle of aiki and is what makes aikido unique, in an unsupported manner, but not okay when I refute it backed by research, Ueshiba's own words, and direct experience?
Alexander Sensei wrote this article ages ago and has re-posted it in VoE. It doesn't come with the answers to your present-day questions, so we have to ask and discuss things. You have been given research and supporting evidence. Please acknowledge or discredit it and we can move on.

Carl
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