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Old 10-18-2012, 02:03 PM   #127
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
You said awase was not what Osensei used against Tenryu and that it was actually Aiki. This is a strawman because Alexander sensei never said that Tenryu was overcome by awase. You made that up as an example of what he was saying.

AWASE does not equal AIKI. Stop making out that Alexander Sensei wrote that. He didn't. He actually called it a principle of AIKI in the title and content of the thread you quoted from.

Let's put down the strawman and do some research into what he actually meant by awase.
No strawman here.

Let me clarify a bit since I now understand where the confusion exists. So, David Alexander stated, "In AIKIDO this is AWASE, which can also be called the principle of AIKI." Notice he used "the", not "a". In fact, the title of his thread also uses "the" not "a".

Now, I took that as being awase is also aiki. As in, awase aka the principle of aiki. I did not take it as awase was "one" of many of the principles that made up aiki, ie "a" principle of aiki.

However, either way you look at it, it still isn't correct. The definition of awase given by David Alexander is not equivalent to Ueshiba's aiki. As I said in this thread, Ueshiba stopped Tenryu using the secret of aiki, not awase.

Even if you try to look at awase as one of the principles that make up aiki, it still isn't correct. All through Ueshiba's discourses, there are mentions of what made up aiki and awase was not one of them. Unless you can point to the research where Ueshiba talked about aiki being comprised of awase? I haven't seen it.

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Or you can just keep posting that I don't know what I'm talking about without anything to support it.
Isn't that what you and Dan are doing with many people on this forum?
No.

Please point to those people in this thread who have posted as extensive research as I have here on Aikiweb (Me) Please point to those people who have trained with hundreds of aikido yudansha, 4th dan to shihan, and been tested in person for validation (Dan). Please point to those who have gone out and attended seminars of Harden, Sigman, Akuzawa, Chin, Chengde, Ikeda, Ushiro, etc. (Hundreds to thousands) Can you point to anyone on this thread who has done any of these things - that's on your side? Anyone on Aikiweb?

We have support in both research and hands on experience on both sides (what I call Modern Aikido and those people teaching IP/aiki).

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
So you have a book called "Takemusu Aiki" you keep referring to in which Osensei defines his art, saying it was born in Iwama. He dictated the book while living in Iwama. David Alexander spent a considerable length of time in Iwama, beginning a few years after Osensei passed away and wrote an article mentioning a concept he learned from the old sempai who trained with Osensei there for ten or twenty years or more. I'm not saying time-served gave them the goods, they just had long windows of opportunity, which is still important. And you allow that information to get branded "modern aikido" without any evidence. Are you assuming a (possibly willful) zero-percent success rate from Osensei in passing on the proper training? You tell others that it is they who have to do research. Why not ask the remaining old sempai yourself, while they're still around?

Carl
Actually, Ueshiba did pass on stuff. The "aikido" greats were all from Uehsiba's Daito ryu teaching days. From that, we know he could pass on the goods. Is there a possibility that some things got passed on in Iwama? I'd think there is a possibility.

However, to define awase like the train example and then state awase is the principle (or "a" principle) of aiki misses the boat completely.
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