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Old 10-18-2012, 09:05 AM   #77
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Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Training to link the inside to the outside is a requirement and is far more difficult to do correctly IMO than people give credit to. has nothing to do with connecting to someone else's center.
Let's break it down into component parts. Train the insides to be connected. Manage the up-down ground-gravity that's always applying. Make any external force part of the system that you control. Any disagreements so far? I know, it's a simplification and there's a lot more. But as you start to go down the path below of applying value statements to a specific slice of an approach to train a very specific things - and then seem to broaden that perspective into how you're going to then apply the entirety of the skillset in the realm of sparring and fighting, seems specious to me at best and lacks credibility. If I train a sensitivity skill drill where I close my eyes to better feel what's happening around me, does that somehow mean that in a fight I will keep my eyes closed? In a contest?

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think you, and many others advocating this lower level (lower/high level- not low level) work of connecting centers are missing some very important key factors that can see you undone at higher levels. And you are the wrong direction. Try thinking of this. If you pushed on a Tibetin prayer wheel attached to a post and it turned...would have made a connection to your center? Or would its structure have just moved and you lost yours. Now, thinking of internals without or with movement; you can move inside or inside to outside, in a such a way that it doesn't expose your center, and anyone touching you, becomes part of you as move. And it can be done without exposing your center to them but having theirs exposed to yours.
I have a nice paper somewhere arguing for that understanding out of China. And there was a nice video talking about hiding your center while taking theirs done by one of the Chen guys. No matter. I am sure everyone is happy doing there thing.
Ah, but I think where we're going to have to agree to disagree is around the common understanding of some of the interpretations of just what you're describing above. I have some papers and testimonials and personal experiences too at this point, and like you said, I'm sure everyone is happy doing their thing. But if I look just academically at what you describe above - you're saying that the internal action required isn't as important as the external frame managing things? (Tibetan wheel example) I don't think that's what you're saying but can you see how it comes across that way (and thus creates a false impression)? If it is what you're saying, then I'd argue your understanding of what's actually being advocated (that you keep bringing up and arguing against) may be a tad off . .

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well...I can't wait to meet em.
I will only say that in relation to the type of movement and training I am talking about, there is a quite a bit of expert opinion that agrees with me. I will also add that ....I..... did what I was challenged to do in these very pages (unlike some)....I HAVE taken it to freestyle push hands with big dog experts in open rooms. Trust me-the last f-ing thing you would EVER want to do is to "make connection"...with their centers!!! As well I am doing it with MMA fighters and a ridiculous amount of Kali, Escrima, Koryyu, Aikido and Daito ryu teachers and others....and sparred with them?????
Thus far...things have gone very well for me.
Anyone else done that....yet?
At least stepping up and trying and experimenting
I am not gonna comment on who you have met and what those outcomes have been. That's a zero sum game. Likewise, I tend not to talk about who I get together worth, for good or bad. Additionally likewise, I still think you're escalating a training drill with a specific purpose in mind to a full-blown approach - which puzzles me, especially as the alternative you're giving seems to be more in the realm of a physical conditioning engine - which I agree is important, but cooperative and working with rather than in replacement of.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have no ego about winning or losing. Nothing has changed from my wrestling days. If I win I win, if I lose I win because I learn. It's just more research for me...yeah!!!
I think that's the whole point of forcing yourself into positions of training to failure. That's one of the most effective ways to learn and see what needs to improve. Find those people that can outclass you in specific ways and keep learning from them

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I feel the same. No more fighting and bad blood. but in all honesty...and fairness. I think it is partly because I and others have taken it out for a spin on an international scale and UNLIKE the ki war days.
We...deliver!! And in person, there isn't a damn thing that doubters have been able to say. To a man...they were stumped.
I would agree partly that I think it's been more useful for people to get together, try things and out and see for themselves what works, what's available and where this kind of training can go. I'm glad you've had success getting this stuff out there and it's resonating with folks. The more exposure people get, the better.
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