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Old 10-17-2012, 04:00 PM   #105
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

It's probably a fair question to ask Mark his qualifications to doubt things from a VOE column.
But be careful about calling BS, Cliff, Makr has done his homework and spent tens of thousands of dollars on research including hands on testing. Secondly, I might suggest you're going to get bit on many levels when hundreds of teachers and shihans happen to agree with what Mark (and I) are saying.

Mark and now over a thousand others have been in rooms, some with up to four Shihan present from different affiliations and they keep seeing it happen over and over. Mark, is not being cagey, about what he has personally seen happen, he is being extremely polite.
I am NEVER going to name names. There are far too many people who have been present in open rooms during some pretty dramatic goings on.

I don't consider this adversarial. Both the research and the results are compelling enough that more and more Aikido teachers are out pursuing many...I say again...many, venues that offer this type of teaching.
Lack of awareness of the pedagogy of the things being discussed is of course troubling within the discussion. The research has to take place on your part. Of course there is a vetting process that needs to be undertaken by those in doubt. I suggest it take place both academically and physically

To try an answer your questions, I will offer one last time:
Ueshiba's training models and exercises were not his
His descriptions were not his
Many/most of his sayings were edited versions of pre-existing internal training dogma
The sum total of his words on training and expression are echos of other works describing internal training. It is no coincidence that the arts containing the same terminology and sayings he was quoting and borrowing from also created what???
Budo giants with unusual strength.

Aiki and awase again
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The classic model was aiki as a union of opposites-BEFORE- awase. It is in my tag line from Shirata -yet another giant.
1. Place the immovable body (there is that nagging Ueshiba example again eh?)
2. Into an an invincible position (awase)
_______________________________________________

As far as understanding goes I continue to pose questions.
How did Ueshiba generate this power with a tree? By "fitting in" with the tree?
How did he stop Tenryu? By fitting in with him? He didn't do anything.
Why did he do push testing? Was that awase?
How?
What was he doing?
How did his description of Heaven/earth/man fit in with a push test?
What is Mountain echo?
Who can do it?
Why did he answer that aiki was a circle with opposing forces?
Why did the things he was saying appear from famous Swordsman after training at the Katori shrine in 1451 who also claimed..... it gave him power?
Explain his answer regarding dual opposing spirals?
Why are there hundreds of men in the ICMA who use the same terms Ueshiba used who have....wait...unusual soft power?
How did this happen, Cliff?

If teachers really understand what Ueshiba was talking about, then why do THEY feel like anyone else I can pull off the street anywhere in the world. Yet, those of us you are debating continue to exhibit a growing unusual strength and soft power to one degree or another. You know, the qualities more in keeping with many of the things Ueshiba was noted for?
How is this happening over and over Cliff and the number of people doing it...are growing?
Could it possibly be because we in fact do know what we are talking about? Has that thought crossed your mind?

Qualifications come in many forms. Cliff. The most telling being what people can actually do. Our understanding in budo, resides in our hands, not in our teachers, not in our "years-in," not in our keyboards...but in our hands.
So, if we remove waza from the equation, and someone feels very powerful and freakishly soft, compelling and controlling,
And then
Someone claims understanding they feel as normal as anyone else...what does that REALLY say about both their understanding?
Cliff_______________________________?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-17-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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