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Old 10-17-2012, 12:39 PM   #71
chillzATL
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. You are moving into martial tactics of either internal power or externally driven power. and they can overlap.
2. You are designing an example with a goal in mind of me trying to take slack out of someones arm. I don't wanna. Screw em. I'm not trying to make a waza work. I am going to play the person with an intact center and be predatory about it; taking their center when it is smart and opportunistic to do so. Whether by my design or their involuntary agreement (or both) or not, doesn't matter to me. I am still not going to "make connect" to a persons center.

Okay my turn. Going back to the original point of centers; who..is connecting or getting connected to who?
What causes Kuzushi in the first place? Is it always the same?
Does a train "make connection" to your center to toss you a hundred feet? Or is it intact and moving itself?
Using the age old Elephant models; If you push on an Elephant he doesn't need to "connect to you" in order to move you. He moves himself, you move with him. If you noodle your arm against the Elephant the slack won't be removed unless he is trying to do other things. Assuming he needs to do other things to off you.
What if there is some sophisticated management of forces within that Elephant to allow it to do much of the same thing by itself on the inside...without moving?

There is a reason that motion in stillness becomes stillness in motion. If you make it a goal to throw someone who is noodling or muscling up...does it change you internally? No, it doesn't. You stay intact and unchanged while you move and still retain and hide your center. What is moving on the outside is being driven by your center and it is affecting them but they are following through their own disconnected bodies until they either muscle up or collapse and you place them into a position of instability. In no way during the course of that is it necessary to reveal your center, or make a center to center connection. The external manipulation of your body can make their stability compromised as there is no way for them to alight with force on any part of you. For them its like sticking a finger into a blender all movement from within to without, getting off-lined and/or hit and kicked from any number of angles of a moving structure retaining its center. And...not caring one bit about yours.

In feel, it is opportunistic and non-dedicated multiples of force vectors happening at once. This is one of the reasons for Sam saying "My present is your future!" and me saying Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me!" They...don't know what we are doing or how we are moving and they're striving to connect...to us...leaves them reactive to forces they cannot perceive and that have no wind up, as inyo makes them one. It makes aiki....at speed.
Dan
Thanks Dan,

1. yep, I understand, though my way of doing would hopefully not rely on the external, hopefully.

2. I think you outlined the differences in perspectives perfectly. I'm relating most of this to trying to make a waza work while still maintaining those things in me vs. the more unpredictable scenarios you're coming from. I've found that a lot of times, depending on the other person, I have to "make connect" in order to make a particular technique work. Not always, but more often than not and those are the times that I try to do enough to get them going, but also keep my center away from them. It's always done with a mind towards what's going on in me and not giving that up just to make a connection or get the technique to work. Though I'm not going to lie, as you've said elsewhere, it's easy to get comfortable doing that and having it come back to bite me. I also get to practice with some non-aikido people who are better than me and I've experienced the other side as well where going and and trying to make a connection and make something happen got me had.

What causes kuzushi? Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's them coming in contact with me and sometimes it's them coming into me and me not being there.

As for the train and elephant, they don't overtly try to connect to me. They just are, doing their thing, until I get in the way and get knocked on my ass. They didn't change anything to get me there, it's just what happened when I got in the way of where they were going.

Quote:
If you make it a goal to throw someone who is noodling or muscling up...does it change you internally? No, it doesn't. You stay intact and unchanged while you move and still retain and hide your center. What is moving on the outside is being driven by your center and it is affecting them but they are following through their own disconnected bodies until they either muscle up or collapse and you place them into a position of instability. In no way during the course of that is it necessary to reveal your center, or make a center to center connection.
What you described there is really how I try to look at it and what I try to do, but as I said above, sometimes, depending on what you're getting and who it is, it's hard to not just go out and "make connect", take control and overpower disconnected floppiness with better structure. I think the point you're getting at in the thread, in general, is that making a connection isn't an internal vs. external thing, but one of tactics and one that if you get in the habit of operating that way, can get you in some bad spots, no matter what you have on the inside, right?

Good stuff Dan, thanks. Hopefully we'll get you down here in January and you can show me more first hand. Looking forward to it.
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