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Old 10-15-2012, 03:22 PM   #65
Budd
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Budd

1. All primary concerns are: The manipulations of forces within you. You asked how it relates in a classical sense? This is covered in so many sayings, descriptions and models it is hardly worth mentioning. All point to the primary Motion in stillness, as the first level. the most important level as it sustains you and balances you and manipulates before contact. Hence solo work.
How it relates martially?
2. All secondary concerns are: the manipulation of force enacted upon you
a. You can join centers and manipulate force from outside within you. This is in my view late and reactive and can be played with. I also do not agree that it is a needed step. It implies -too all I have met who use it-,a passive body that is receiving. In and of itself this is not a method in keeping with any discussion I have had with Master class teachers, or have read of many others. Moreover, in a fighting sense, it is inferior.
b. You can manipulate forces within you that are continuously resolving yin and yang. Thus any force enacted upon you meets force in motion and action, thus reducing and redirecting upon contact. There was never an intent to make a connection, and there is a greatly reduced chance of playing your center. This can easily transfer from internal to external with a smooth transition and no break in either feel or load. There are various modes to accomplish this and not all agree.
I think the key phrase is joining with someone's center from within you. How you do that is the name of the game. I've met a number of folks that were hard to move when someone was pushing on them with a dumb force but then got really easy to move when you knew how to muck with their sense of where down and up were going. So I'd say yeah, it's a combination of conditioning and skill with the result you're shooting for enabling kuzushi on contact because you are better developed. I've had some luck with folks that have in theory been training this stuff for multiple years but couldn't do basic jin things by getting them to use the "make a connection with their center" exercise - but I also acknowledge it is just a starting point and that there's a bunch of other things going on in tandem. Maybe folks that don't need to adjust their sensitivity regarding how additional forceloads get reconciled inside themselves don't need the step.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I do not agree in the least bit that the best way to accomplish #2 The manipulation of force, is by passively connecting and then attempting connection to make kuzushi.
I do not agree either that you passively connect, nope. You need to understand how gravity and ground are reconciled inside you before you can effectively make someone else's gravity and ground part of the overall system. So, yeah, lot's of solo work to get there. Lot's of conditioning. But that piece of making somebody else's orbit part of your ecosystem - I guess we're going to disagree on the utility of training that as a discrete thing to develop sensitivity and layer in to the overall package as it becomes one thing.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While we agree that fighting is an ancillary or parallel issue, the deliverable results in that venue are in fact superior to the model of joining centers to move. Internal movement prior to motion accomplishes significant division and manipulation of initial force... upon... you without much thought as it is a constantly trained state. Thus #1 is faster, and harder to play with from the onset.
Well, yeah, in applications there's no time to do a step by step engage-act-react. Your body needs to be trained to handle itself. I don't think anyone's making the case for the training drill to be a technique you perform in a live environment. If your body hasn't developed the sensitivity to handle and adjust to external inputs in a live environment then you need to do more solo work and try it out with a partner against more moderate resistance.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ask LCD and then WHJ where a jin force starts. You might be surprised to see they do not agree. Then you can read certain amateurs stating it is THIS and always was THIS.
Nope, not surprised they don't agree based on where each came from, etc. The only certainty I'd subscribe to is that there's a baseline set of skills and rules that different people have developed to different degrees with different areas of focus. It gets more interesting as you get exposed to more people, for sure.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There any number of teachings and discussions involving Chen Yu, CXW, LCD, LCG, HJS, his ideas from CFK and Feng's, which do not all match and compare them to LDX or HJB and go on and on from there. DR has it's own basis of kuzushi in it's own model describing how motion precedes receiving. Now, add the internal non-visible component to that model and you have yin and yang present, this is expressed by Ueshiba as well in his discussion of heaven/earth/man "releasing the mountain echo" and ask why that is, then on to various chi gongs to move energy within as a constant state..... prior to and during actual motion.
Right and they all have different ways of alluding to the same or similar buzzterms to show they get it and are in the club. Considering some of the flare-ups that have happened based on lineage, style, etc. I think we're actually having a pretty healthy disagreement around a definition and training progression. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that resolving the forces inside you is primary - no argument here - then you go to how you need this in applications, fighting, etc. No argument there, either. What I'm arguing against is dismissing the "connecting centers" bit as a wrong step or unnecessary one. Managing the bits inside you in such a way that you automatically connect to someone and can manage them as well is awesome and the way to go. But I'm not convinced that advocating against training the extra sensitivity parts to link the "inside" to the "outside" isn't a worthy step in the overall progression.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
When they contact motion in you, they are automatically reacting even when they don't realize it. And no...I am not talking about moving around...
Hah, I know you aren't - but, see, if I wanted to - I could borrow a similar argument to the one you gave and say, "Sure, that works on someone with little to no skill but meet someone that's resolved the forces inside themselves and can better manage yours as well you'll find that you can't manage the forces inside yourself very well and are easy to keep off-balance" ... yadda yadda ...

Anyways, this is a much better disagreement to have than those of the years before regarding "I know all this ki crap already" or "It doesn't exist!"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Cheers
Dan
Always a pleasure.
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