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Old 10-14-2012, 03:57 PM   #63
Carl Thompson
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Location: Kasama
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 488
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Hello Chris
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, it's unique, but not necessarily objective. The Founder was just as prone to bending facts as anybody else, and it's important to keep that in mind when considering certain statements - and considering what certain instructors base their own statements upon.
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
It's quite likely that Saito's quoting the Founder here, IMO.

That doesn't mean that what he's saying is correct - and it opens up some other conversations about whether or not the Founder was always representing things truthfully.


As I have come to understand it, purposely misrepresenting the truth (as Osensei saw it - as one of Japan's premiere martial artists), would jar severely with his spiritual training -- which he connected to his physical training. He was human, but one with a pattern for having no disparity between thought and deed.

Takuma Hisa said that aikido and Daito-ryu were essentially the same. His opinion was based upon training with Ueshiba first (1931) then later with Takeda (1936). Saito Sensei was around at a time when he would have met and trained with plenty of old sempai (including Mochizuki) who had strong backgrounds in the Budo that Osensei taught before he started calling it aikido. In the interview I quoted, Saito Sensei began with "It was said..." and whichever sempai he is referencing, his experience in the dojo clearly tallied with significant changes to the art.

Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Really, hanmi is not a mysterious innovation of Morihei Ueshiba, you see it in most Japanese arts. Further, hanmi is, to my mind, peripheral to the main question here - whether or not awase is really the same as aiki.
Koshinage and punching are not mysterious innovations either. As your video link shows, the hanmi Osensei developed in Iwama is different in form and application. Hanmi is not peripheral either since it is the cornerstone of awase. As Alexander Sensei said, aikido as Osensei defined it (born in Iwama) was derived from Daito-Ryu and other arts, a couple of which have been mentioned.

As I have come to see it, awase/musubi is a part of Takemusu Aiki.

I like the work you are doing correlating Osensei's words with kokyu/Aiki training found in Daito-Ryu and Chinese arts. There has been very little reference to what Osensei did in creating aikido from Daito-Ryu and other arts in Iwama. Whole books have been written without anyone actually coming here and looking at the Aiki Jinja and asking how its design relates to the way Osensei taught, or looking at his library, talking to the people who trained with him in that period etc. Your welcome to David Alexander was surprisingly frosty considering the wealth of information he has that could help you.


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