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Old 10-10-2012, 09:01 AM   #22
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
1980 Black Belt Issue Vol 18 No 4. Article by David Orange, Jr.

Isn't a direct quote from Mochizuki. Paragraph reads:

Mochizuki does not wish to put himself on Uyeshiba's level, but he wonders why Uyeshiba employed only about 15 of the 350 techniques of daitoryu aikijujitsu in his aikido. "Between two well trained opponents," Mochizuki said, "a punch or kick or throw will have little effecct. the strongest one on the ground will win." Therefore, he places emphasis on judo.

Mark
Thank you.

If Osensei only employed 15 out of 350 Daito-ryu techniques, that makes the repertoire of techniques he left among his students in Iwama shockingly Daito-ryu-free:

Quote:
What is commonly referred to as Iwama Aikido is a vast technical system consisting of taijutsu, aiki ken and aiki jo techniques. The taijutsu component alone includes somewhere in the vicinity of 600 techniques. Add the various weapons suburi and paired exercises and you have well over 1,000 distinct forms.
From Stanley Pranin.
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...tanley-pranin/

Also Osensei himself said:
Quote:
There are about 3,000 basic techniques, and each one of them has 16 variations . . . so there are many thousands. Depending on the situation, you create new ones.
I think the very definition of 'technique' and the concept of what that training method is trying to achieve can blur the boundaries. Maybe only 15 were left unaltered?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Daito ryu = guruma. Ueshiba did? From what I've seen, guruma. So, where exactly did koshi nage come from if Ueshiba didn't do it?
The Daito-ryu koshi-guruma is a hip throw. Osensei taught many throws involving the hips and they are known as koshinage (hip throws). According to this research, only two hip throws were in the Daito-Ryu Hiden (both referred to as koshiguruma): http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14306

Osensei left dozens in Iwama.

Basically, what Alexander Sensei said stands.

Morihiro Saito Shihan (interviewed by Stanley Pranin):
Quote:
O-Sensei was greatly influenced by Daito-ryu. It is said that when he was practicing Daito-ryu he confronted many problems so he tried various other arts including Aioi-ryu before the war. After the war when he resumed practicing in Iwama his aikido had changed dramatically. Even though he had been influenced by Daito-ryu there are many distinct differences between O-Sensei's aikido and Daito-ryu. For example, aikido is taught from hanmi, but hanmi is not taught in Daito-ryu. Neither is kokyuho. Although Daito-ryu has many tewaza (hand techniques), the body movements often clash with the opponent's movement. Daito-ryu does not include the idea of the unity of the sword, jo and taijutsu. These are changes O-Sensei incorporated during the Iwama period. Many Daito-ryu techniques were not particularly effective against an opponent who had been trained even slightly in martial arts. Although there were a large number of techniques, many of them were not that effective.
Furthermore...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Weapons. Ueshiba doing weapons does not look like any koryu I know of or have seen. In fact, people keep trying to find the koryu he took things from. How about we take Ueshiba at his word ... with aiki, we would do it this way. Which leads us straight back to Daito ryu aiki, now in weapons. Courtesy of Sokaku Takeda.
Well I said Kashima Shinto Ryu earlier. This is what AJ says about that particular koryu:
Quote:
A traditional Japanese martial art school with a 500-year history whose sword has a clearly demonstrable influence on the development of the AIKI KEN. This school is a composite system whose curriculum consists of various weapons including the BOKKEN, YARI, NAGINATA, etc. Morihei Ueshiba formally enrolled in this classical school along with Zenzaburo AKAZAWA in May 1937 by signing with blood oaths (KEPPAN). The influence of the Kashima Shinto-ryu sword in aikido can be seen by a comparison of the ichi no tachi sword of this school and the first kumitachi of the AIKI KEN as taught by Morihiro SAITO; the two are virtually identical. Other similar movements can be seen in fragmented form in the sword practices of Saito. The techniques of this school were demonstrated in the AIKI NEWS FRIENDSHIP DEMONSTRATION III in 1987.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclo...hp?entryID=358

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
My comments about awase are that it isn't what made Ueshiba's aikido unique. It was IP/aiki. Awase was for Modern Aikido.
Aren't the IP crowd saying that IP/Aiki is not unique to Osensei and can be found in other martial arts?

I also wonder how you define awase. Like koshinage, it is just a word in Japanese that is not tied to a specific way of doing things. I can use awase with the staff in my office when we share the photocopier. People using the term arrange it with other words to show what they mean by it and in the context of Alexander Sensei's articles, I don't think he meant the overly compliant practice that plagues much of modern aikido. Another way of looking at awase is as musubi (connection).

Regards

Carl
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