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Old 10-05-2012, 08:58 PM   #5
maxham
Dojo: Shin Ryu
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6
Indonesia
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Re: Tanomo Saigo & Asayama Ichiden-ryu: The Forgotten Roots

Quote:
It seems like you are saying that Asayama Ichiden ryu is the predecessor to Daito ryu. That's an interesting thought, but for this conversation to continue we'd really need you to tell us why you think this.

Do you practice Daito ryu and Asayama Ichiden ryu? Then you could share your thoughts on how the techniques, principals, training methodology, or kata are similar. Do you have documentation to support your claim? Do you have youtube videos to discuss? Is it simply that you have seen demonstrations of both arts and found them similar?
Quote:
Maxwell - I've read that assertion before, but I've never seen any documentary evidence. What proof do you have of any connection between Daito-ryu and Asayama Ichiden-ryu?
1. Are there any proven connections regarding waza?
2. Are there any proven connections regarding the construction of the curriculum (ie., Daito-ryu mokuroku constructed in the same pattern or using the same waza names?)
3. Who (Sokaku or Tokimune) actually did this? Did either one of the men simply take an Asayama Ichiden-ryu mokuroku and copy it's "design?" Or did one or the other man consult with Asayama Ichiden-ryu practitioners?

NOTE: all the assertions I've read about this connection have to do with the construction of the mokuroku, or copying of technique names or methods. I've never read or heard of any connection asserted re internal training, so, unless such an assertion is made, for the love of all that's holy under the heavens, can we not go sideways into the "Aikiwars?"

Ellis Amdur
OK guys, before we proceed, I personally haven't practice AIR & DTR family. But I do make friends with some people that practice both (and even become the instructor of AIR & Hakko-ryu). And it's from their stories that I heard the connections.

But here's the thing: We do know that DTR and lots of other koryu bujutsu, if regarding history, often times are very confusing because the lack of documented evidence. That's why oral tradition is important. Despite, if there's a written evidence, that'd be much better. And sorry, not to mean offensive or what, but I still personally believes that oral history still remains the most powerful source of information, especially given the high secrecy, in solving mysteries of bujutsu. Written evidence could still be manipulated, but despite words can also be manipulated, the essence still could be the same. Evidence is important, but we know that still must be based on common sense, right?...

Anyway, the best evidence I could show you is on YouTube.
For DTR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrQtdoUvSTQ
(this is from Takumakai)
For AIR: http://www.youtube.com/user/syousui?feature=watch
(contains several instruction videos about AIR)

Man, I'm, just standing in the "civis pacem para bellum" principle guys. I basically also don;t want to instigate some "Aikiwars", but if someone nudged on us, you know just doing nothing is not an option...

Hope that help my explanation & stance.

Maxwell
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