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Old 09-03-2012, 03:53 AM   #120
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Dan, I agree with you. And I have felt that kind of very soft but irresistible power from you and from a few other folks coming from different backgrounds.
My point was not that you or I believe differently from that but, again, pointing out that use of language, how things may be read here, may well be leading to misunderstandings: for many aikido folk who have felt the "hard" throwing, muscling power on the mat and have decided it isn't what they want, if those folk are not familiar w/ you or other folks doing internal training, they may likely read your use of the word power as synonymous with that approach because it is their only point of reference for "power" in an aikido context.
Hi kiddo
Good point. It's yet another reason that internet communication and trying to explain how things work becomes so difficult-yet in person things are much more clearly defined. In person everyone agrees center driven power is different than normal strength and feels different on contact.

No force
No force is my goal and it was the goal of many high level arts-Aikido included. Strangely, and worthy of note by virtually everyone in the deeper arts, is that most all of the high level arts had no force as a goal. And those arts??? All discussed building unusual strength, including Sagawa who was on about his "transparent power" or no force. The real hallmark was how to create a body driven by center that created a stunning "neutral force" and how that force dissolved the opponents directed force leading the engagement to zero wherever force from the opponent is applied.

It's a worthy discussion to debate/discover different uses of unusual strength and how it leads to NO FORCE, but a key component is the ability to dissolve their power and apply no force. And none of that is using muscle in the normal way.... to throw people. All of the deeper arts relied on internal power to create change (aiki) against the opponents will. Something which Ueshiba practiced, demonstrated and quoted throughout his career. Evading, by externally moving away from someone, as well as using the type of muscular strength in flexion everyone is well aware of, was not part of that paradigm. It certainly was not the type of thing that the great men were known for.

So the real discussion on the mat should be; what caused that "what the heck" moment?
Was it caused by timing?
External movement?
Use of a persons automatic responses (all present in good Jujutsu)
Again, it is worth noting that the greats never were much on talking a lot about such mundane things. They were pursuing something something truly different from the movements of normal people and quoting established principles for this higher level training.

Chasing the ability to create no force has an inherent requirement for strength. It's just not the type of strength that most people associate with normal strength. And THAT is why the Asians all talked about it and noted who was different. It is ...that strength...I am referring to and not the idea driving and pressuring a throw that all of us run into from time to time.
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