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Old 05-22-2012, 08:39 AM   #39
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
with respect I have to disagree with this, just becasue someone knows how to fight doesn't mean they are formaly trained in anything, I know lots of effective street fighters who have just been fighting for a good part of thier life without taking any lessons

yes this is very ture, if you haven't ever pressure tested your style, you will be woefully under prepared to deal with anything, whether it is some one facing off and then attacking or ambushing

No, I don;t make big movements to avoid a punch it is not only boxing that teaches this but many arts and just through experience of fighting you learn not to make big movements. this also assumes that the boxer will be doing pure boxing, he will feel the adreneline dump well in afight, becasue it is not a sports match where he knew in advance and was training for it and prapring for possiblly months. not saying that his boxing won;t come through in some way but it will be very different to what he does in the ring.

no my goal is to escape, an armlock keeps me in the fight,

Again with the idea to escape a fight, keeping some on on the ground until the cool off has no pupose, and i have seen people in such a situation where the guy apparently cooled off the stood up and knocked 7 bells out of the other fella. if you r armlock is also based on pain compliance, drugs, alchol and even adrenline can increase a persons pain tolernace considerably.holding a fella down until other arrive might seem like a good idea but you are then gambling that the people who arrive first will be security and not other looking for a fight.

where i am from facing multiples is the norm, and you have to train for that, moving and escaping. I do not really care about being the most skilled fighter in my street or town,but just about surviving.

I have heard many accounts of people using Armlock but their purpose was different to mine, and it wasn't even in a real serious situation.

There are of course maybe exceptional skilled people int he world that can pull off armlocks to anyone, but i am not one of them.
Yes you are stating true points, however what should be kept in mind when writing on forums is that your counterpart cannot always write a treatise in order to cover all possibile points (I already make consierable efforts, but fundamentally you cannot always cover or imagine any possibile given observation or exception). Some times what we say is true regardless of the fact we omitted details. I think you agree.

So, it is true that you don't need a formal training in order to fight - however, you do need an intensive training in that, no matter then if you have made it in an MMA gym or in a boxing gym or in the street with gang buddies... When I emphasize the MMA o boxing thing what is implied, and the reason they are mentoned, is that:
1) you do need to spar intensively and frequently
2) you need to spar with guys who really want to incapacitate you (no "demonstrations"...)

This is the department where, unfortunately, aikido is more lacking.

As for the wide movements, all martial arts teach and advocate not making big movements to avoid punches or incoming hits, inclusive of Aikido. So I am not surprised that you have been taught so.
My point is: if a guy is taught so, but never practices intensively, those millimetric movements won't simply come out of him when necessary - he will get easily scared by a wide variety of factors, and he will find himself making huge movements all the same that, actually, will expose him even further (a skilled fighter will pursue you in no time, no matter how ample your supposedly evading movements are).
So, i guess we agree here also (not that I have problems with disagreements, I only stress that many details are details I may have not covered, and yet i am aware of them).

Let me add however that this idea that an MMA training or boxing training would not work well in a "real" fight is an idea that can be entertained only as long as one has not been in both.
The type of, let me say, terrific skills that you learn with daily sparring are such that it is totally irrelevant whether a guy in a "real" situation produces a chain, a bottle, or even a knife: your ability to hit repeatedly and at an incredibly fast pace, of moving out of the line instantly and keep hitting from the side, of dancing around, are such skills that will pose you in a position to set the whole agenda.
I have been faced 3 times with a bottle in my life (once not even long ago, but i am referring here to 25 years ago when I sparred regularly) and let me assure you not only those bottles where useless, but I knew they were - I even said to one of them before we started "that won't help you". They did not even get a chance to lift their arm! That's how fast and effective you can be if you keep sparring regularly.

If a skilled puncher engages you, then you're engaged. The shower of punches that will reach one's face in a few seconds from so many different routes is such that you simply have no time for anything else but taking it - you won't reach out for bottles, you won't even have time to think about the knife you have in your pocket (aside from the fact the time I saw a guy putting his hand in his back pocket I knew what he was looking for - you just invest him with even greater ease with your straights, his hand will "die" in his pocket - besides the way you are trained to move out of the line and reengage from another angle immediately is such that even a knife would pose no problem, imagining here a guy who relies on mild abilities with a knife).

instead longer blades or sticks can be a problem, like multiple adversaries. I knew as a fact I could manage at most two also if it never happened to me to be faced by two and fight.

So, definitely, being used to spar makes the difference also in "real" situations. I have seen (not involved) persons hit by a chain. What cause the chain to be successful was that the person was scared to death in merely seeing it. Instead it is trivial to avoid a chain hit: as soon as he is posed to swing his arm, you just make a relatively big step forward, you take completely away from him the distance and you say "goodnight" just in front of his nose...

I also agree that keeping a person armlocked in the hope he cools off is not bound to work in all situations, exactly for the reasons you mention.
However, if you don't want to risk killing guys (with all the entailed consequences) like your default option, armlocking and giving to him the opportunity to cool off is a good idea nonetheless. Eventually, you can always cause significant damage to his arm or wrist by adding manipulation with blunt force on the joints, enough to make it unusable, and being so also assured it was no use of lethal force.
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