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Old 03-19-2012, 02:34 PM   #17
Tom Verhoeven
Dojo: Aikido Auvergne Kumano dojo
Location: Auvergne
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 295
Re: Differences between female & male practitioners

Amir Krause wrote: View Post

FOr those looking at Aikido as a practical M.A. Tori should be able to do his Aikido technique even on people who try other ways of countering it. Tori should have his Aikido solution for any counter, an answer of the type "this is wrong" while failing to overcome the counter, belongs to the monti-pyton M.A. teacher.

The results count!
Aikido practitioner with skill should be able to overcome most counters thrown at him (by a less skilled parctitioner), and particularly those based on size, and strength advantage. The Aikidoka may have to switch techniques or variations, but he has to prevail.
I used the word "most" since no one always wins, and some differences are too large to expect any victory.

I agree with the first sentences. Although I am guessing at what you mean by Aikido as a practical M.A. There is also an Aikido that is not a practical M.A.? Are there people driving a car without an engine?
I have been training in the martial arts since my early teens. Have practiced all kinds of martial arts and sparred with people from all kinds of M.A. background. I have been teaching Aikido on a daily basis for more then twentyfive years. Often two - three classes per day. Not counting the weekend training sessions and seminars. Not counting my own personal training hours, not counting the classes that I followed or the seminars. I take my study and practice of Budo very serious. But if you feel that there is no need for you to take me serious when I try to help clarify a discussion or come with an alternate argument, by all means call me whatever you like. As the buddhist saying goes; It is like spitting at the sky, you will only foul your own face ( I do not have any pythons on my land, but there are a lot of vipers, so perhaps monti viper is more fitting?).

Furthermore, may I suggest that you read more closely to see what the discussion is really about and what the argument that is presented is really about.
If in a fight or a contest you manage to bring your opponent down then nobody is going to ask you how you did it. Every thinkable take-down becomes valid.
But this is not the case during a regular class where you are learning the ins and outs of a technique. If you then you have a partner who is trying to resist a technique especially with muscle power (wan ryoku) and also does something that any warrior would try to avoid in a real fight, succeeds in bringing you down, then what exactly have you learned? Or has your partner learned?
a. The stronger person always wins.
b. The stronger person can always do techniques a smaller person cannot, because he is stronger.
c. Your technique does not work, because 1. you do not understand the technique or principle. 2. this technique does not work!
d. The way to counter ikkyo is to get straight up.
Over the four decades of training I have found non of these conclusions correct. Partners that are resisting my techniques in a forced way with a lot of muscle power are simply wasting my time. At the age of twenty they would have gotten away with it. Nowadays, without exception I bring them down! When I was taking classes with Tamura sensei he was able to stop my technique with the gentlest touch if I did something wrong. In my twenties I found that quite frustrating, but after a while I began to see that what he did was much more interesting and valid then what al those training-partners did while using muscle power! Tamura sensei used Aiki. And Aiki has nothing to do with muscular strength.

To get back to the ikkyo counter; getting up and lifting your partner after you have been brought down is nothing else then forcing the counter. And while you do that you are open to all kinds of throws and pin downs. There are smarter ways to counter ikkyo, using aiki.
And there are a lot of counters in Aikido. If you still feel the need to search for more counters in other M.A.; by all means!

And yes, your partner needs to have enough skill and experience to have an Aiki solution ready, even if the counter comes from another M.A.. I did not suggest otherwise.
But you are not going to learn any aiki solution if you continue forcing techniques and applying them in an unrealistic way. This is one of the reasons why I do not encourage the use of muscle power in my classes.

Having said all this - this was not what the discussion was about! Ikkyo was only mentioned as an example.

Greetings from the Auvergne,
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