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Old 02-15-2012, 01:21 PM   #10
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Scott - a lot of good information there. This thread invites drift, because it was posted in whimsy, so lets clamp down a little more.

I did forget about the proper details of the Perry incident, but Nakakura Kiyoshi witnessed the pedi-cab/taxi driver incident, and I doubt much, given as he was practicing Daito-ryu himself, that he'd mistake a nikyo or a yonkyo. (or nikajyo yonkajyo, if you prefer). Just as it's impermissible for me to replace yonkyo with nikyo in the first Takeda incident, it's not on for you to replace yonkyo in the second,contrary to an eyewitness who was a practitioner of the same art.

And one clarification: I'm not a yonkyophobic - that would entail that I was "afraid" - "phobic" of the technique. So far, I've never seen anything to be afraid of I've simply never experienced it, beyond my tender wrist days as a beginner, that this technique has any effect whatsoever. I'm a "yonkyo-unimpressed-bic"

Terry Dobson stated (I've mentioned this elsewhere) that once he was standing beside O-sensei (then quite elderly) when the latter got angry at someone, and unconsciously grabbed Terry's wrist and squeezed. Terry stated that it felt like a red-hot wire was thrust through his wrist - he iterated that he'd experienced bruising pain from other people's yonkyo, but that this was qualitatively, terrifyingly different. That makes me an "yonkyo-agnostic"

There are two levels to consider:
1. If the person gets kuzushi - which in aiki arts is, frankly, often a manifestation of "aiki-accomodation syndrome" - the uke moving the way he's supposed to so that tori can apply the technique, and YES, this obviously happens a lot in Daito-ryu as well - then the fact that a properly applied and leveraged yonkajyo hurts is no big deal to me. I'd want to see HOW Takeda Tokimune, with his massive hands, got control of Kondo, before I'd be properly impressed by your account. A pro-wrestling cobra twist is incredibly painful, but it certainly requires a lot of mutual assistance (a co-prosperity sphere, so to speak) to make it work. So, even if it leaves the uke squeaking and flopping in pain, I'm not impressed by that.
2. What Takeda seems to have done with Perry. That would be wonderful. I'd love to experience that. I'd love to be in a free-style grappling situation, or better, grappling with strikes, on our feet, and someone can put a yonkyo - or double yonkyo (!!!!) and totally control me. If that can be done - outside of Daito-ryu kata or Aikido "kata," then I'll worship at the Church of Yonkyo.

Ellis Amdur

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