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Old 11-22-2011, 08:31 AM   #93
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Re: why do people search outside Aikido for IS?

Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I rarely bother with aikiweb anymore since Mike and Dan appeared but this post caught my eye.
If you look back to when they were first around you'll prob see me involved in a bunch of disagreements with them. Their position was always 'aikido has lost aiki/IS' my position was 'this is simply not true, rare it may be but it is still there'. Their rebuttal was 'well you clearly don't know what aiki/IS is', mine was 'actually I do but apparently only people who have been to your seminars are allowed to say they understand it'. Hence we face ever decreasing circles of idiocy from all parties, and in particular I received a bunch of abusive PMs from people for daring to question Dan's skills and abilities (I did not question them btw). Made my responses rather more trollish than I'd have liked so I left aikiweb pretty much. Not intending to critisize anyone here, rather the whole situation was something I just couldn't be bothered with anymore.

Dan and Mike certainly seem to have things to offer that a lot of people find very interesting and worthwhile, and I certainly have no problem with going outside of aikido to bring things back in, many (most?) of the great aikido teachers I can think of have done some of this, from my lineage, Koichi Tohei for one, plus my own teacher Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei has spent some time with aspects of Shinkage Ryu and Daito Ryu when he teaches. I've also spent time in various CMA type places whenever I can and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Kendo too.

Basically I feel like O Sensei left us with a big box of presents in the shape of the aikido techniques he'd adapted from Daito Ryu and elsewhere and it may take us several generations of students to unwrap them all and fully understand them. Often going outside of aikido to someone else who has been playing with a particular toy for several years before you started unwrapping it can save you having to read the manual. That person can (ideally I suppose) be your aikido instructor, but I see no reason why it can't be someone like Dan or Mike either.

I think you misscharacterized both of our comments. Mike, in particular has argued that there is IS in Ki aikido to one degree or another and spoke favorably of the efforts of a teacher he met.
For my part I have spoken favorably of Shirata, Mochizuki, Saotome and Ikeda. My feelings on Shirata and Mochizuki going back to the aikido list days. So I think you let other issues cloud your judgement there.
To be clear, I think IP/aiki is rare as well, and I also do not think it is fully developed in aikido. I haven't seen anyone in the art that I think displayed what I consider a fully developed skill set in IP/aiki.

I think the enthusiasm some feel at discovering this work and being able to do certain things has gotten the better of them. Enthusiasm is great, but there is no need to be rude to each other. Everyone who is out meeting is having a great time, laughing, sharing and learning. We need to do a better job here. I have seen some outrageous things being said and done (some of the recent threads and comments aimed at me are unprecedented) and brings out the worst in all of us. I keep hoping everyone can dial it down.

Mary's question:
Why do people search outside Aikido for IS?
Has a simple answer.
They haven't found what they are looking for in Aikido.

Beyond that the only debate is whether all that is available is even in Aikido. Some say it is, others that it isn't. Most are not qualified to offer an opinion, since they have never ventured outside the box to form a credible opinion worth listening to. It is a bit much to see people argue that Aikido is complete, having never been anywhere else. It becomes even more difficult when those claiming all you need is in the art...continue to be completely undone by those stating there is more to be had than is taught in the art.
Since so many Shihan have gone outside the art -specifically to learn IP/aiki-it is a losing bet to argue that it is not needed. Since is based on aiki, an ages old concept, it stands to reason that people would look to the worlds arts for comparisons. With teachers going out and meeting people like; Sam Chin, Mike, Ark, Me, and others, the flat truth is that the face to face meetings are supporting the arguments that there are at least other...if not better...methods for training IS and aiki outside the art. Goodness gracious there is an eighty year history of teachers going outside of aikido to learn, including the founder. They all discussed it. What's the big deal?


Last edited by DH : 11-22-2011 at 08:46 AM.
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