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Old 11-08-2011, 07:56 AM   #32
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,068
Re: Overriding uke's determinism

Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Raul and Keith. This seems like a good starting point, clarifying the meaning of the word.

Raul your definition of general philosophical thesis, wow, I don't know that one. Keith yours again of some unchangeable chain of events, wow, I don't know that one either. So before anyone says I'm using an unknown definition, a graham definition, I assure you I am using pure, clear, standard as per dictionary definition. So any misunderstanding isn't from me.

Determine......root meaning (detrminare- latin-to set limits to)

Definition.....a)to make up ones mind very firmly b)to fix or settle beforehand, decide. c) to be the deciding fact in reaching (a certain result)

So it's to do with the above. now add self as in self determined.

So the meaning I am using here is action caused and done by self will. In other words not caused by exterior forces. So a bang making you jump is an other determined action (caused by something else)
Jumping because you want to is a self determined action.

So that clears what I mean by sef determinism I hope.

So my original statement above says to override what uke wants, demands, is doing.

1. Let's get past this definition thing. Determinism is not the correct word for what is being discussed. An ism is a noun-forming suffix root used to change the meaning of a noun from a specific noun to general doctrine or system. Let's accept that was the wrong word and go on.
2. I believe you mean to use either "determined" or "determinedly" as an adverb to describe the manner in which uke attacks.

Uke absolutely needs to develop the ability to attack nage with the expectation that if nage does not properly execute waza, uke will prevail and the attack will succeed. Nage absolutely needs to develop the ability to properly execute waza. The aikido confrontation is about control: physical control, mental control and spiritual control. I am imposing myself upon my partner on one or more levels for the purpose of establishing control of my partner. While not necessarily a bad word, I am not so much "overriding" my partner's will to affect me ("overriding" has an implication of domination or force) as I am creating a scenario in which aite realizes his efforts will not prevail. In this sense my partner is changing his intention from offense to defense. This also puts him in the position to receive my offensive as I transition from getting to giving.

This is (I think) where we break down as "uke". We attack like morons and our bodies are never positioned to defend if nage ever did want to transition into an attacking role... So rather than making our uke better learn how to transition from offense to defense we threw out the offensive role for nage... Again, I don't like "overriding" here because that implies that uke is not altering his position to respond to nage. And we are back to this concept that nage must be responsive to uke but uke does not have to be responsive to nage. I think good aikido is about the communication between uke and nage that creates a dialog - "Don't go there, that won't work. Oh, shoot, well I better move here then. Thanks."
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