My head is spinning. I kept hoping to read a post that clarified what Graham is saying, but he kept digging the hole... No means yes? At best, you are vaguely referring to a relationship in which you are empowered to help uke push his limits, at worst you have just described an assault.
1. Uke has the right to tap out whenever he wants, for whatever reason he sees fit. Nage has the obligation to respect and obey that request.
2. Partners with trusting relationships may empower each other to increase the environmental stress (and danger) to each other's person.
3. It is NEVER the role of the sensei to empower himself to "rectify" deficiencies in a student without obtaining consent from that student.
4. Trust is earned by establishing safe and respectful training environments, not because you are sensei.
I think you are trying to point out that in training we are supposed to create scenarios that push our boundaries. Personally, this is what I believe. Yes, eventually we want our students to understand the proper timing of ukemi. Good uke need to learn to hang in until nage no longer presents suki. But the notion that nage may do this in the interest of uke and not necessarily with his consent is disturbing, especially coming from a teacher.
You have now had several responsive posts that did not address some of the posters comments and I cannot help but to respond as well. You need to clarify your statements and consolidate your message.
"Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei! Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it? No, sensei!"
Jon. I've explained as best I can. When expanding on the point for clarification then comments such as digging a whole don't make sense. So, not knowing why you see what you do in what I've written I'll attempt to clarify using your points.
Point 2, agreed.
Point 4, Not agreed. Reread what I said and you'll see my view ie: Trust is increased through good capable handling.
Point 3. Not agreed. Students come to be taught well and thus the Sensei is already empowered to correct and improve otherwise why is the student or the sensei there?
Point1. If you don't understand through what I said then I have no other way of putting it.
Where you get trust is earned.............not because you are Sensei from I don't know.
Where you get thoughts of pushing limits or assault from beggars belief.
A simple fact of being able to differentiate seems to freak a lot of you out. I sit here in amazement wondering why?
As you and others here are always shouting about keeping it real then I feel sorry for you if you had to use a control technique for real. In real life the person will scream blue murder in order for you to let go 90% of the time NOT because it hurts but because they want to knock your block off.
Another misunderstanding here I think is most who are unaware of what I'm talking about or against it seem to me to be talking purely about pins. I am not.
Pins come at the end of a move and when addressing only pins then what they say fits, I put them on side one of the coin also.
The situations I described had nothing to do with pins, in fact Nikkyo was the named technique I used for explanation.
While I'm at it let's get more real shall we? An example of tapping out in real life. You're helping an old lady or man up from a chair or a wheelchair. They put their hand out and asked you to help them up. Half way up they 'yelp' (equivalent to tapping out) Do you let go? No, you immediately move to make them comfortable and ask what's wrong.
Blindly following rules is no excuse. It makes you more blind.