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Old 09-25-2011, 04:53 PM   #9
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
Re: Where did O-Sensei get his sword training?

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I don't think that is true, Mark. IP and aiki most certainly, but he wasn't frozen in time. He had plenty of exposure to other things. I even think his aiki grew, as did everyone elses.
I disagree. If Takeda had not taught him, Ueshiba would have been just another unknown person who had some training in bayonet, judo, and a bit of sword. He would have been just another of those muscle-bound martial artists who liked it when people broke their hand on his head. He would have remained unknown.

While Ueshiba did learn some sword from Takeda ... which is true, even if we don't have any direct proof. It's too coincidental that Ueshiba swung the bokken and switched hands with it easily. Some training was there. But, the fact remains that Ueshiba never picked up any koryu to any extent except enough to pull out bits and pieces of what he liked that he could fuel with aiki.

Prior to Takeda, nada. After Takeda, we do it this way with aiki. If not for Takeda, Ueshiba probably never would have picked up the sword at all.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While true, that is attributable more to his aiki and movement, then to his waza. He changed the practice greatly. Some think for better, some for worse. I think he made improvements in some areas, not in others, but that's just opinion. Aikido is not DR that is for sure, although a very intriguing discussion can be had behind closed doors as to what Takeda looked like on film. Maybe...just maybe, Those two were not as different as some would like to think.
I don't think he changed *his* practice greatly.

From Takeda, "The purpose of this art is not to be killed, not to be struck, not to be kicked, and we will not strike, will not kick, and will not kill. It is completely for self-defense. We can handle opponents expediently, utilizing their own power, through their own aggression. So even women and children can use it."

Takeda stating his art is not to strike, kick or kill. Completely for self defense. Utilize the opponent's power. Ueshiba repeated these core values in his own way, but he got them from his teacher. Everyone thinks that Daito ryu is all kill, but according to Takeda, it isn't. Who's to say that Takeda didn't change in his later years towards this more spiritual, universal, harmonizing, self defense attitude? There are things out there that sort of point to this. Takeda's words, Sagawa's scroll (see below), etc.

Even more evidence of where peace, love, and harmony came from is looking at Sagawa. The scroll in his dojo:
Aiki is the harmonization of ki.

The entire universe sustains itself perfectly through maintaining an endlessly fluid balance, or harmonization. This harmony is aiki.

It is never stagnant, but rather unites while in this constant state of movement to create harmony without producing negativity or conflict since the ki of aiki is natural.

The harmony created by aiki must serve as a fundamental part of the foundation of human society. This concept is known as World Peace through Aiki (Aiki no Daien Wa).

One should use the principle of aiki to harmonize with and de-escalate those who threaten violence. In the case where an enemy has already initiated an attack, one should rely completely on the principle of aiki to blend with or redirect their attack, which in turn produces a state of harmony.
Sagawa is talking about the harmony of the universe, aiki as part of that, world peace, etc.

Who is the common factor in both Sagawa and Ueshiba? It sure isn't Oomoto kyo. It's Takeda.

Sagawa never expanded on those ideas the way that Ueshiba did. But, so far, most everything in Ueshiba's martial skills and outlook can be traced back to Takeda.

Ueshiba, like Sagawa, went off on his own aiki training. The difference is Sagawa went one direction and Ueshiba went with Oomoto kyo, kotodama, etc. The ideas behind both, though, are nearly identical, and most likely came from Takeda.

I don't think Modern Aikido is like Modern Daito ryu. But then again, I don't think Sagawa or Horikawa are anything like Modern Daito ryu either. And I really do think Takeda, up until he died, thought of Ueshiba as a Daito ryu student. I think, had Takeda lived post war, he would still have thought of Ueshiba the same way. After all, Takeda saw Ueshiba through all of his Oomoto kyo studies, changes, and training. Who was it that kept trying to show up at Ueshiba's door? Who was the one who was never there?
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