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Old 01-27-2011, 04:37 PM   #129
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo & Kiko - NY, PA, MD
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 997
Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Graham - "Steal the technique" is a well known axiom in Asian martial arts. I've had it explicitly said to me in both gendai and koryu budo training. On a related tangent, I heard a pretty well known guy in these circles say one time, "Budo is about learning how to get close to someone, learning what they know and gaining the ability to kill them".

I won't claim it was said in all seriousness - nor am I going to ascribe any meaning to their personality, their intent, etc. But on that level I do understand where they're coming from in that at root there was a pragmatism inherent in this kind of training - that did become a form of self-cultivation over time - even while stemming from the ability to get the most personal power from a combative sense (ie, Now I can kill you).

I've also heard the" get it in 20 years" philosophy espoused in more than one milieu. If your experience is different, then great. I'm sure everyone has their own experiences. Though your salesman analogy has me a bit puzzled, I'm speaking of personal responsibility. The "goods" in many of these arts are reserved for those that are smart enough to figure out what's going on without being explicitly told (or by demonstrating that, get access to the "goods" - familial and ethnic proprietary "stuff" still sometimes being withheld).

So, while I appreciate your advice, I'd advise you to contribute to the topic, if you have anything to contribute and like has been asked many times - save the personality discussions for your gossip circles.

Regarding your thoughts indirectly "about" the topic - I'd disagree - I think people need to be able to contribute what they're seeing, if they want to have that discussion, and not be afraid to admit they know, don't know, have questions, have thoughts, ideas. That's if people do want to discuss the "how to's" and "how's it work's". If they don't, cool, nobody is forcing anyone to participate. Based on your description of a "progressive" description below, people should only speak about it if they are going to offer "I like how so and so did X". Given the reaction to the videos you posted of your practice, I understand why you'd feel that way - but I don't think it's productive to a discussion *about* what one is seeing and analyzing.

About me? Always trying to share and learn. Not part of a particular school or style anymore. Internal strength is my main obsession. I go try it out against people doing MMA as a kind of lab. Actually going to start fencing next week. Looks fun and I like swords. Have nothing for sale, sorry.

Though I actually do want to jump on the video train at some point because I do think it helps people as a tool to analyze what's going on. Will probably start over at QiJin though and I need to round up some *cough* volunteers.


Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Budd. I'm sure you do want to do all those things and I'm sure most students do too so I don't quite understand how you equate that with 'being told you'll get it in 20 years' as that's just a saying, I've never heard anyone say it or or believe it literally. In fact it's the type of thing people who have nothing to do with martial arts may say at a party to sound impressive.
I also think you've missed the point of what Mark was saying. He was trying to point out that if you promote 'stealing' and fast track learning, if you use that kind of terminology then all it does is give the impression of a con going on. It makes it sound like some smooth slick salesman.
I would advise you not to dress things up with things like that and any other salestalk as it doesn't show you in a good light.
Having said that, if you are discussing a respected persons way, actions, demonstrations, then why not do it in a positive manner?
For example: In such and such video I liked how he moved the uke in a smooth circle from his center and then........(you get the picture?) That would be from someone who says they know what's happening. Otherwise it would be more like: 'I get how he moves uke around from center but didn't understand how he then caused her to come back in towards him'
This would be far more of a progressive discussion than pointing out it's JUST this or it's just that and he didn't do this or that or mentioning his students or his teacher or anything else for that matter.
Food for thought I hope. I'm sure you know the principles you know but I'm not sure what your purpose is? Are you trying to learn something? Are you trying to share something? Are you trying to sell something? I'm curious.