Tony, are you aware of the relationship between Tadashi Abe and the Tempukai?
The problem for people like Tony is the IT/IS coaches can not (for different motives) provide the names of fighters* who by, following their conditioning methods became the equivalents of, for instance, Rickson or Ribeiro with their yoga/ginastica natural. You'are asking for a serious leap of faith.
*Because this is a martial arts forum. If this were a surfing, contemporary dancing, soccer or another discipline forum we coud ask for similar examples.
Well, I think its obvious that I agree with that.
But following your logic...
TMA of all types Asian and modern have not yet produced the equivalent of those men either...and they never will. They are MMA people. Hence the reason I have been doing MMA most of my life. On the other hand I have produced men who can fight..and have fought. I don't know about other people and their students.
To further that point most MMA coaches of all types have not produced a steady stream of fighters with 368 to 1 records either. So the point is?
I still maintain that IP/aiki is...on contact... an obviously valuable skill and moreover feel different. either that or Tony is basically right in saying that hundreds of teachers, TMA and MMA people here are all morons.
We can't have it both ways, the logic in the debate has to run its course. If it is "collusion and nonsense" and yet as a skill set it is vetted by all these people...then
a) They are stupid, don't really get martial matters and are not to be judged as credible witnesses, or
b) They know they have encountered something very different from their prior experience..
But hey...why bust poor Tony. Mike says all the time that you can essentially throw out all these witnesses as well....because they don't get it and are poor judges of anything regarding IP and aiki.
So what do you have?
1. Tony says all the reports are nonsense and discounts them all.
2. Mike agrees! Further he continues to tell everyone who will listen that they should as well, That no one knows what they are talking about or what they felt in the first place no matter who it is from.
I don't fault anyone for arguing either way, I just am trying to follow the logic in the argument from all sides.