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Old 01-13-2011, 07:47 PM   #163
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18

I really don't care either way, but neither can I support the lack of logic in some of the arguments.It's not supported well enough to be even close to definitive so we should all remain a bit more open.

I still am waiting for a credible argument that should allow any of us to call Takeda a liar about what he stated about learning Aiki from Tanamo. And let's not forgot that he also said it to others.
When I am asked to consider doubting his credibility I look at other things he said and try to paint a picture.
What kind of fraud and liar would miss the chance to call himself Soke
refuse to call himself Shihan
refuse to claim rank
So did Tokimune
A lawyer might ask "Just who...are we and what have we brought to court today to defame these men and call their word into question?.
They seem MORE credible than Sagawa.
That's why I am waiting for a credible argument to believe Sagawa over Takeda.

Why
I am waiting for an argument WHY Takeda would have lied. Give me some plausible motivation...something that has some measure of credibility enough that I should call into the doubt the reputation of a master class Martial artists over ...who? And for what?

Let's start a dialogue of how Sagawa could be the liar if we are going to use him to refute Takeda. I mean heck why not, right? I will start.
*Sagawa the self promoter saying he learned aiki at 17.
Wait for it.............
He didn't learn to create an aiki body till later.
Okay fellas,

*What is the difference between the IP he gained through his conditioning later in life to him stating he learned aiki at 17?_____________________
How can that be? Where does it make sense? It does make sense and it could explain Shiro as well if we want to beat that horse again..


I am waiting for an argument to connect aiki to the Internal power training in some of the Koryu. It has NEVER been presented. Power is not aiki. Internal power will greatly help get you there but it is not aiki.

In agreeing with Scotts points about weakness V more aggressive arts.
let's also use Sagawa (heck why not he seems to be the poster boy)
Sagawa stated he gained more power and aiki in his seventies GREAT.
Sagawa was noted for being physically weak too.
So.......

1. How does this relate to Sagio Shiro_________________________
2. Takeda lied because_______________________
3. Sagawa and ONLY Sagawa is right and should be listened to as a better source of information because________________
4. Sagawa by mentioning his getting aiki at 17 thus by default is now differentiating (just as I have always done when discussing IP/aiki) the difference between IP and aiki. That is yet another issue.
As I said to Peter and Ellis right here;
a) if you don't know these things you
b) may or may not ask the right questions in the first place
c). might not look for the right hints
d) thus you end up making connections that can be tenuous or even meaningless
e). Miss things that are truly hidden in plain site when looking for DR's source of aiki.
d) Separating the two IP and aiki can potentially negate or call into question the entire line of reasoning of Koryu IP and DR aiki all together.

5. Once again the use of weird Japanese with the "indoor disciple used in the ICMA to this idea of "inside the threshold" model of oshiki uchi. Wasn't it only Tokimune who said it was because of the protection of the Daimyo or Shogun.

Again, as my PA relatives would say..."don't mean beans to me." but there is not one thing being presented here that is definitive.
All the best anyway
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-13-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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