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Old 07-15-2010, 06:44 PM   #49
Aiki1's Avatar
Dojo: ACE Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 346
Re: Painless Techniques and Learning Aikido

Joe Curran wrote: View Post
I am interested in your comments here in particular the last
couple of paragraphs when you say that should someones waza cause pain , you dissect it for them so they can see how to do the waza without pain.I have a problem here with this explanation inasmuch the person doing the waza might well be doing it correctly while at the same time Uke may not be respondng to the actions of Nage.
The answer is that if the technique is being done correctly, both physically and kinesthetically, which we do not separate, it will Not cause pain. It's not about Uke responding to what Nage is doing in that sense. The pain only comes from incorrect execution (in my dojo.) Proper Kuzushi occurs, without pain, and Uke, in essence, has no choice about it.
It seems to me that you are putting the onus primarily on Nage.
If Nage is a 'Bad boy' and he cranks it on intentionally you take him to one side and give him a fatherly chat.
In that sense, the onus is indeed on Nage.
Incidentally what course of action do you take if BadBoy ignores your chat?
If someone really continues to consciously hurt people, which has never happened, they would not be allowed to practice at my dojo.
At the same time if Nage does a good waza correctly and Uke screeches the place down the onus for ukes pain from your perspective still falls on Nage. This suggests to me that your school seems to ignore Ukes responsibility for his own safety in the interaction between the two people.
I just have to say again, there is no way that Uke would screech if Nage does a good waza correctly. Without "understanding that" there's no real way to explain this way of practicing/learning Aikido. Pain is not a factor in our Aikido waza. Now, this isn't to say that we don't all make mistakes. In that sense, in that situation, Uke is responsible for his own safety, and because the possibility for this is always present, Uke is therefore "always responsible" for his own safety.
As far as your Ki extension is concerned and your ability to be unaffected by joint locks is concerned I believe that a well executed sankyo for example rarely fails to work whether someone is or isnt extending Ki.
I don't know how to answer this exactly, we have different experiences. Have you ever trained in a good, solid Ki Society dojo where this stuff was taught? Maybe so, I don't know. That being said, Sankyo may be the "most difficult" to "counter" with Ki, but by no means impossible. Nikkyo, Yonkyo, Kotegaeshi…. all "not too dificult." This was one of Tohei's points early on about Aikido practice - "Attack with Ki" and maintain "one's integrity" which is what he experienced from O Sensei, and "regular execution of technique" does not work. I'm paraphrasing. Read his early writings about his experiences with O Sensei, other instructors and deshi, and how he formulated his approach to Aikido. Some of the answers are there.
As a point of interest why do you also avoid attacks to the chin and Rokkyo?Is this common practice within Ki orientated dojo?
I don't teach any technique that goes against a joint. As far as I know most "Ki-oriented" dojo don't, but I really don't know anymore. They may very well still do chin stuff, as Tohei seemed to like that in his early days (you can see him taking Terry Dobson down that way), but again, I don't really know now. I don't do it for a few reasons…. partly because, again, with a certain "use of Ki" it isn't necessarily effective per se.
I ask these points purely to glean info on how other groups see Aikido. Cheers, Joe
I'm always interested as well.

By the way, I am independant for a reason.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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