Wasn't trying to draw comparisons to ability, only the similarity in some of their exercises. There was some overlap there, so there has to be some value in Tohei's exercises. If Ueshiba approved and Sagawa also used some of those things, they both come from the same place, there has to be value. Maybe not full boat skills here, but if we're just talking better aikido, I think so yah.
Still haven't read the book, but isn't there a story of Sagawa and Ueshiba meeting and Ueshiba inviting him to come teach at the Aikikai? That has to say something about the guy.
My point was as I stated- simply that there is little to nothing to stand on in comparing the two. That's all.
When you called Sagawa a "superstar" of IS I decided to make an equally nebulous (but more interesting for me) comparison between Sagawa and Wang Shu Chin. It goes no where. See what I mean?
I was having the discussion with a senior teacher today ...
About testing a master level Daito ryu teacher. What's the point? There is really only one way to test the guy, and they are not going to have it.
How do we compare superstars who train in systems where:
Students just don't try to stop a teacher as a regular practice (hell if ever), when the training model is to take ukemi instead of effect change and give their energy back and when people are convinced that taking ukemi by falling is a good thing.
Compared to "superstars" in arts where the goal is to neutralize constantly and give it back where both people have power and they try to undo each others efforts.
And that compared to the few guys who train IP/aiki where you fight or at least seriously spar.
No interest in getting hit, but being able to grapple with this stuff would be pretty awesome. It would be hard to not want to go find some judo guys or wrestlers to test it out with.
I understand the doubt and why you would consider it awesome, but if you really understand IP/ aiki -it is made for MMA/ grappling and should not be unusual. Grappling alone bores the hell out of me anymore without
the ability to hit and kick. Same thing with weapons without the ability to freestyle with them. I mean what the hell's the point? Its just trading one more limitation for another when you have inherent power and ability to deliver the whole package.
As for IP/aiki in freestyle MMA? I stopped debating those points here anymore. I think the Ki wars poisoned the well and people can never even dream that their arts aiki was good or real enough to be a stand alone power that absolutely kicks-ass wholesale. They have lost confidance and the understanding that what once was the cornerstone of their arts power can be again.
Bill had some interesting views on Ki, as well as Ki in aikido as well as Ki in fighting. And I will tell you, that 65 yr old man showed up in sweats and wanted to go at with me "full-on" to see what would happen. I have no end of respect for the shear guts of that man.