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Old 06-02-2010, 06:45 AM   #12
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
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Re: more religious issues

While I do not fully disagree with all the statements supporting the Sensei's, I think most here are looking at the picture from a very specific point of view.

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Come to my house and want to play with my toys? Well, guess what? My house, my toys, my rules.
When was the last time you met by strict religious people of other faiths?
Their limitations come from God, yours are man made cultural issues. They can not make the slightest amendment or change - that wold hurt their beliefs. You must accommodate them.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
So let me get this straight. They are choosing not to train because part of the training is against their perceived religious convictions which prohibit interaction with other genders. So it is discriminatory to *not* to let them discriminate against other genders?

Ouch, I think I pulled a frontal lobe...
Yep, that is their argument, and in some strange way they even have some point. The way you train is adjusted to your beliefs, they want to train according to their beliefs. It reminds me of the French who decided on a law against wearing overt religious clothings in some (specific) public places, and claimed it was not discriminatory, while in fact, only Christians were not affected by it.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Seriously, I can be very flexible about a lot of things. However, sometimes the issue of entitlement can really be a hot button issue for me. Are these same groups boycotting all the local businesses, restaurants, social clubs, etc. that allow genders to interact? I sure hope the movie theaters keep women separate too. What about the public schools -- can't have the women in the same classes with men -- think of the chaos that could ensue! And surely there are no female teachers teaching male students. Oh, and the public pools... And... And...
You must be joking. Such groups will have their own schools (in Israel, funded by the public ), they will demonstrate (some times violently) against any business that does not follow their rules
(be it sex segregation, working on Sabeth, or selling non-kosher food). They will demand to get all the social services their way (including public-beaches that are men only or women only with ugly fences blocking the view of anyone in them)...

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
No. They cannot train in that dojo because their religion prevents them. No one has to alter their work, training, or beliefs to accommodate yours or anyone else's. It's their problem. No one else.
Again you are missing the very point of those groups - they wish to force you to convert. You believe in freedom of religion and from religion - they do not. You are against discrimination - they are only against any discrimination to them.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
If someone wants to start a training class for those who have particular requirements and restrictions, more power to them. And I'd support them 110% in doing it however they want to. And I would respect them enough *not* to insist on sitting in on the women's classes. And I would respect them enough to try to act properly in their context. I have friends from a variety of religious backgrounds. When I walk into their house I do my level best to abide by their rules, their customs and their habits. I'm sure they also compromise many things and "overlook" many of my bad habits and obviously poor upbringing. But I still do my level best to respect their right in *their own freaking house* to live how they see fit.

Step through the door to someone else's house and you need to simply... Deal with it. Or don't go in. Doors are cool that way -- they open allowing you to move in *both* directions. Or not go in at all.
In most cases, a host does take some consideration to accommodate his guests. In my own opinion, and from my experience, it is possible to accept some religious people, with their limitations intact, and still keep the impact on the dojo life acceptable.
The level that is acceptable has to be set by the Sensei, and should not harm anyone else. My Sensei refuses to accept student who will not bow to others, but accept those who will not bow to the Shomen. He accepted in the past few students who did not train with women, but they were alway the minority, and the rule was no woman would be left anytime not-training because one of them refuses to train with her (in such a case, the partner of that one trained with the woman and he was left partner less).

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Hi all,
I think if the "excluded" people started already a campaign against the dojo via their temples, that is pretty strong. They are not excluded because of being strict Moslem/ Jew/ evangelical Christian (or whoever refuses training with the opposite sex) but because of upsetting aikido training rules, which is a strictly technical issue.

In my dojo we once had some boys refusing to train with the girls. Not because they were religious, just because they had the age when girls are absolutely unworthy, ridiculous, feeble creatures whom a REAL BOY doesn't want to mix with. Obviously they had to leave the tatami when showing this attitude. So if they are sent away but other boys refusing girls for religious reasons are admitted, who would be discriminated? The non-religious-anti-girl boys, or the girls? I think if a dojo is pretty straightforward postulating that everyone trains with whoever bows to him, then no exceptions should be made, be it for personal dislike reasons, religious reasons, technical reasons (X is such a bad uke!) etc.
Don't be that naive, the training rules and their religion contradict. Many here seem to imply in such cases, they can change their strictures, just like the "teenage boys". But if they change their strictures, they will no longer belong to the same religion.

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
But on the other hand, as already someone wrote, no one prevents people who are uncomfortable to train with the opposite sex to set up a strictly purdah dojo. In Turkey, most Turkish baths are gender separated, everyone knows, and it's a problem for no one. But on the other hand, no one would issue a fatwa against a Turkish bath were mixed bathing hours are allowed - but conservative or very religious people just wouldn't go there.
You do realize for that to happen, there must be some religious Sensei who trained with someone who did accept him.

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
This wonderful dojo asks that people display a common sign of respect for partaking in some aspect of an Asian culture. This wonderful dojo asks people to train together regardless of gender. Seems to me like this wonderful dojo is not discriminating against anyone. The people who choose not to train in a manner that everybody else is training in should not be allowed to take away from the training experiences of others.
Religion is too often not tolerant, and not open to accept other cultures, definitely not to experiencing them.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I frankly am a little sick and tired of people who want to be able to do exactly as they please regardless of the circumstances. I do not care of it is in the name of religion or any other reason for that matter. What do they say, "when in Rome..."
For a jew : "when in rome, live in a ghetto" (for that matter, this was true for jews living in any Christian country, not so long ago.

Amir

{ who would hate NOT to train with men and would do my best not to be confined to an all-men dojo, nor thinks it is fun. And who actually believe that as a man, training with women is important to my own technical advancing in doing practical Aikido.
And who is willing to make minor accommodations, but only minor and not as an opening to bigger changes}
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