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Old 05-12-2010, 09:37 AM   #91
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I'm not speaking on behalf of people I don't know. I'm basing my opinons on my own experience. There are approaches/techinques and training methods that, had I abandoned them in exchange for short term more practical/immediate gains, I wouldn't have begun to understand their depth. Please note. I am not dismissing solo training whatsoever, but there are levels of knowledge involved in other components of the arts, such as Kata, rei, ukemi training in Daito Ryu/Aikido etc that are vital to these arts transmissions. From what I read of your comments here you downplay all these other elements.
I feel like I am repeating myself and you're not hearing me. I have great respect for the traditonal arts, and strongly insist that those training with me remain in them. Most don't need any of my advice, they would never consider leaving or dropping their training. This is why I consider the concerns and fears of the "Traditional art defender's club" a figment of their own imaginations not based on any reality I know.
I would call your view of my opinions a massive misunderstanding. It is more accurate for you to say that I simply do not discuss them, so you do not know what my opinions really are. Lack of discussion is not downplaying anything.
Case in point: Do you know my opinions on classical traditions, like Koryu, they might surprise you? On weapons maai, and empty hand, as a study and the benefits one can bring to the other? On Judo/ Jujutsu with all that entials? On the areas where classical kata seemlessly join with freestyle and where they don't? And not least, how an understanding of traditional weapons work (and only traditional work) could have led to Takeda's understanding of aiki? What and how that could be so? No. I don't suspect you do. I share those observations and opinions with highly qualified company on a regular basis.
All due respect, maybe it's a mistake to sum up the entirety of my experiences and opinions based on what you have read of my views on one topic- IP/aiki.

On the Takumakia adopting solo work:
With respect, I think you're simplifying things. There are a number of Takumakai people with very high level aiki who to the best of my knowledge didn't get it from Tokimune.
I suspected you would consider the teachers in DR to have "high level aiki." With respect, I would advise you to consider that there are men capable of stopping any one of them in their tracks and reversing it on them....using aiki at a level they have never considered and do not know.

Equally, at least one of Tokimune's shihan practiced and taught solo training.
I felt one of his highest ranked people. It is my opinion that he was stiff as a board, as were his two students. His power is not of the type being discussed here with IP/aiki. He showed solo training, and neither the exercises or his explanations of them displayed a level of understanding of that topic. He is a jujutsu guy

That's great, and I don't doubt that you're teaching something very valuable. I'm simply doubting that it's the whole story when it comes to traditional arts. Of course, I may be wrong...
There is really no point in arguing the topic until you get a handle on it. The previous discussions with those who consider themselves "traditional training defenders" do not end well and typically turn adversarial. So why make enemies?
In counterpoint, I am no longer surprised to find out that once we meet, encounters with both fellow Koryu adepts, Daito ryu teachers and students and other traditional artists, as well as the meetings with MMA people not only turn out well, we are in fact of like mind and become friends.
For that reason, I reserve more of myself for those encounters, rather then these narrow topic discussions.

I understand solo/breath training is vital, but I don't see how Alan's comments contradict what I said. I'm not knocking training that makes one BETTER. I'm questioning training that takes one away from learning within the perameters of one's art, especially at the beginning levels.
It's a fine line between innovation and conservation for sure.
The discussion or topic is far more in depth than simple solo training. My point is that you would need to know the topic first, and were you- to know it- there would no longer be a debate about it's relevancy in tradtional training, or this notion you have that it would take away from traditional training. That is simply not the case here.
You might want to consider that your opinion is not shared by any one man I personally know or know of. And to my knowledge they are more advanced in the tradtional arts than yourself. You don't have to take that into consideration, as you don't know the players I am referring to, but were I a budo guy who was unfamilair-I would sure be looking at the this influx of very old information and the impact it is having on traditional budo teachers with some serious interest. But that's just me and how I look at budo.

My main point is that, before people dismiss models of practice that seem antiquated/inefficient, we should be aware that these practices may hold vital teachings that only reveal themselves over time,
For a discussion point I would offer that it works both ways, doesn't it? The difference may be what I outlined above in the opinions of some master class teachers and other mid-level teachers and students alike in the traditonal arts who are now embracing this training. They both know and understand tradtional training and simply do not see issues that you see. I certanly don't.

"Last and to end it on topic
Shioda rose to fame doing what? Stock in trade Kodokai aiki displays. After he did what? Went to train in Daito ryu to learn aiki."

I know
I understand where you are training.

I'm looking forward to seeing the fruits of such work on a wider scale.
It's all ready happening. I am hearing very good things from different groups. I think some of this training is better than others for fitting into the traditional Japanese arts and still having universal applicability in MMA as well. Some try to argue it's all the same, we'll just have to see who trains what and where it goes. I am looking forward to it as well.
If people know what they're doing, good luck to them.
And good luck to you as well. I hope this clarifies things a bit better.

Last edited by DH : 05-12-2010 at 09:51 AM.
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