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Old 01-28-2010, 06:44 AM   #20
Erick Mead
 
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Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - Shinkage ryu menkyo

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Erick - I think there should be a rule that to discuss a book one must read the book.
1. Nakai and Tsuboi did not do Yagyu Shinkage-ryu - they did Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Different ryu entirely.
OFCOL. I just said that he did Shingan --The point is that there have been references to Nakai also having Shinkage training as well as his main license in Shinkan -- maybe spurious, but they are out there -- which I simply added as a point of consideration to the apparent discovery of an actual Shinkage document granted to Ueshiba (whatever its provenance) that you hammered me for even suggesting from other evidence before. Since he did not get the license from Kisaburo Gejo or his Yagyu branch -- the same problem remains as at the start. What was the nature of the influence or aspects taken from it? He wasn't shy about mentioning it -- though perhaps its purely promotional value may have been the motivation. The conceptual ties seem otherwise, however.
Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
3. The debate here is (well, should be) what the nature of a menkyo that Takeda gave Ueshiba.
I understand that is your debate -- my question, which I flagged as tangential, mind you -- is whether that is the most useful aspect of the debate. Determining what Ueshiba took or did not take in concept form or training from Shinkage -- that seems more fruitful than the hallmarks on a scroll. YMMV. You seem to have more of what I might call a koryu mind, so did Takeda -- but Ueshiba did not, he "stole" as much as he got by "legitimate" transmission -- recognizing both 'styles' of achievement have have their own legitimacy and traditions. That difference was a source of conflict between them -- and breaking down those concepts and elements in a way, not disrespectful exactly, but, shall we say, less worshipful, of the school's self-understanding would be closer to what seems Ueshiba's common method. He wasn't interested in their traditions -- he believed there was an ur-tradition to be mined out of them.

If we want to understand Ueshiba in how he took things from these schools we need to adopt something closer to his self understanding. Preaching to the choir here, I know, but it is a psychological error to try to understand someone primarily in the way I wish to understand him, rather than trying to understand him in the way HE wishes to be understood. Neither perspective is actually objective -- but the latter is more likely closer to being true.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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