View Single Post
Old 01-20-2010, 06:56 PM   #313
"Beenthere..donethat"
IP Hash: a5e4cb60
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
I didn't say I thought that Hasan, or any of the other religious nutcases I cited, had PTSD. I know all about his past and his poor work history, etc. I think he was schizophrenic. All of the other religious nutcases I cited also thought they were going after religious targets; the Virginia Tech shooter saw himself as a christ-like figure, and the health club shooter decided that he was 'pre-forgiven' for his actions, and so could do whatever he wanted.
Quote:
You're disparaging religious people, and I'm an atheist - there's nothing for me to take offense at.
So, now I'm disparaging someone's religion? Oh, puh-leaze. Would you defend Christianity or Judaism like this? or just Islam?

Regarding Major Hassan, the biggest difference between him and the other people you mention is that he is the only one who is actually acting according to a proper interpretation of Islam. The thing with radical Islam is that it is not contrary to what the major Islamic scholars interpret as the proper practice of Islam. However, the others had very skewed views of their own religious beliefs and are acting contrary to the religion which they just happened to belong.

I suggest you seriously look up Major Hasan and his religious beliefs - not just his employment history. He does not have schizophrenia. (I mentioned PTSD because some have used that as an excuse for his actions as well.) Google his power point presentation. It's very revealing. He was rather sane when he prepared it. He is not concocting his own view of his religion like the others who go postal in our nation.

I am not disparaging Islam by saying that the extremist views of Islam actually condone what Mr. Hasan did. He did not misinterpret Islam. The extremist views of Islam are not twisted versions of the Koran, the Hadith and Sharia Law. He was not someone going postal and just happened to follow a particular religion (like the others you mentioned).

He actually took his actions because Islam justifies violent jihad - Holy War - against U.S. soldiers. (Again, look at his Power Point presentation. He said it right in there.) Also, it was reported that Major Hassan yelled "Allahu Akbar" (God is great) before he started shooting. He considered himself a "Soldier of Allah" (It was on his business card). These are the words that Islamic terroists use. These words are not evidence of a misperception of reality, paranoia or bizarre delusions. They are a reflection of actual properly held radical Islamic beliefs.

It just that people are too afraid to say something critical of Islam, even an extreme view of the religion and people hold back and remain quiet. That is what I mean that we need to cut out the PCism regarding radical Islam.

Quote:
No. I'm saying that they should be allowed to train, with limited accommodation. That is all.
That is fine so long is it does not affect my training. They are welcome not to bow because it does not affect my training. I had said that over and over, but you conveniently ignore that point. However, aikido is a martial art where the sexes train together, and it is reasonable to expect all members in our Western society to train together whether male or female.

Quote:
By that reasoning, we should close all dojos to people of all religions (and atheists too) because some of them use their belief systems to bulldoze people's houses, throw harmless monks and nuns in prison and torture them, burn children as witches, wage various wars, etc. We should all just stay home and practice stick from video instructions.
This is called classic slippery slope reasoning. I don't care what someone believes so long as their belief does not interfer with my training.

Quote:
Whom am I blaming, and for what? I'm not saying that it's women's fault that some men have RRs. I'm not agreeing with the reasoning behind the RRs.
...AND...
Quote:
When did I say that it was anyone's fault? I'm saying that she's not going to get to train, either way. It's not her fault - it's just the way the social dynamic would work out in the situation you've been describing.
...AND...
Quote:
Is this how you're trying to justify your comparison of allowing men with RRs on the mat to being raped in the locker room?
Yes, I am justified in using the comparison. Often times people blame women for being raped for going someplace alone. You are trying to justify a woman getting excluded from training because she showed up someplace alone. Yes, I find that as very offensive especially in this example where the women is showing up to a class with 3:1 or 4:1 ratio RR to women. She felt excluded and felt intimidated by the situation. It should not have occurred.

Yes, you are blaming the woman for the RR of the others because she showed up to the dojo alone. You stated in a previous post:
Quote:
In your second case, it's not that she'd have two people to train with that she otherwise wouldn't, it's that she'd show up at the dojo alone.
In order to support your position that the woman in question was not being affected by the "accomodation" of the RR you support your contention with the clause that she showed up to the dojo alone. Nope. That logic does not work. She still does not get to train when she otherwise would have if people without RR were there for those morning classes.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that humans are difficult to work with all the time, and we are constantly making accommodations for each other. Mild RRs (such as would allow a man to train in a dojo with women, and treat them respectfully as fellow human beings, but not train with them) are just another facet of humanity that we find annoying, but tolerate in each other because we also have facets that others find annoying.
Yes, humans are difficult to work with, but accomodating others is a two way street. I accomodate someone and they in return accommodate me. However, the situations here is not a two way street - especially when radical Islam is invovled. It's only going one direction.

However, your statement that these restrictions are mild is the really the root of the problem. You believe that not training with women is a mild religious restriction. It's simply not. Not touching women in any form in Islam is actually a radical interpretation of Islam. It is not mild. I am not misinterpreting Islam, but rather I am describing a radical practice of Islam. It is an extreme practice. We have modernist Muslims in the dojo and they do not practice this. The prohibition against touching women is found in the hadith and Sharia Law, and it's enforcement is practiced in countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afganistan. The reason is that it is born out of the Wahhabist interpretation of Islam - which is a practice of strict adherence to a Sharia Law. Please Goggle "Wahhabi" and "Sharia Law".

Quote:
She gets to train with the instructor when they're there, too - she just doesn't get as much of his or her attention.
No, she doesn't. The instructor was also Muslim. When the students with the RR came he would not train with her. However, when they were not there he would. He being more of a modernist would appease the more radical by accomodating them and excluding the female student to the extent that she had no one to train with.

Quote:
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. You're claiming that you're being drastically harmed because "...3 people out of 120..." do not want to train with you. Suffer.
LOL Well, it would not be an issue if I got to train with 120 people all at one time, now would it? Like I said before, the biggest problem was when we had particularly small classes in the early mornings with an average of 2 - 5 people or when we did randori/jiyuwaza or when I taught. Most class sizes when this was an issue was with about 8 people in a class, our class sizes do not usally get bigger than 12. That is enough to affect one's ability to train.

Quote:
Have you ever asked them why they also want to train at your dojo?
...AND...
Quote:
Again, have you asked these guys *why* they don't do that? Maybe your dojo is better. Maybe the hours at your dojo are the only ones these guys can work with.
Yes. They want to be ranked in the association to which we belong. They want the credibility that comes with the name of our head instructor.

Quote:
And, of course, your opinion is sooo much more objective and reasonable than mine.
Yes, actually, I have my B.A. in International Studies with a focus in Middle East an Islam's role in the world. I also spent four years on my own accord studying Islam in consideration of converting to it; however, I did not. I have a depth of knowledge regarding the religion, and I also have a law degree so I have an understanding as to legal requirements regarding religious discrimination.

Quote:
So is training with everyone and bowing to the shomen.
However the stinky person is not part of a protected class of person that 501(c)(3)s and For-Profit dojos are prohibited from discriminating against. Allowing an accomodation to bowing to the shomen can be a reasonable accomodation - it does not affect my training.

Quote:
I agree; however, I'm not sure that disaccommodating one group slightly, (especially when there are 117 other people willing to train with them) so that another group can benefit greatly, quite matches your 1:1 setup of discrimination above.
Like I said before it was during the early morning classes and it was more like a 3:1 or 4:1 ration of RR to female. Not very welcoming now is it?

Quote:
No, he can't. I'm an atheist, so I do think that religion is largely a matter of choice - but I don't expect people to just drop their entire belief system so that they can train in my dojo. Especially when they come from a religion whose fundamentalist sect (and that is what we're talking about, here) says that apostates should be killed by their own families.
...AND...
Quote:
If the only issue for these guys is having to undergo ritual cleansing later (and if that's as simple as it sounds), then yes: they should be the ones to bend a little. Since the only Muslims I've known personally were of the liberal stripe, I don't have any knowledge of that specific issue.
They wouldn't be dropping their entire belief system at all. They can do the ritual purification afterwards and still be in accordance with their radical Islamic beliefs. (They just don't want you to know otherwise.) And, yes, they can bend a little. One of the four actually has chosen to do this.
  Reply With Quote