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Old 12-24-2009, 04:59 PM   #311
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

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Actually, Major Hasan was not certifiable. He had never served overseas and did not have PTSD like some people would like for you to think.
I didn't say I thought that Hasan, or any of the other religious nutcases I cited, had PTSD. I know all about his past and his poor work history, etc. I think he was schizophrenic. All of the other religious nutcases I cited also thought they were going after religious targets; the Virginia Tech shooter saw himself as a christ-like figure, and the health club shooter decided that he was 'pre-forgiven' for his actions, and so could do whatever he wanted.

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Sorry, if your offended.[sic]
I'm not offended. I'm disagreeing.
You're disparaging religious people, and I'm an atheist - there's nothing for me to take offense at.

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But yet, you still defend the belief system.
No. I'm saying that they should be allowed to train, with limited accommodation. That is all.

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The same belief system that justifies not training with women also justifes them {snip list of extremists atrocities}.
By that reasoning, we should close all dojos to people of all religions (and atheists too) because some of them use their belief systems to bulldoze people's houses, throw harmless monks and nuns in prison and torture them, burn children as witches, wage various wars, etc. We should all just stay home and practice stick from video instructions.

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I have worked with rape victims. If you are familiar with working in a rape crisis center then you are familiar with the notion of "blame the victim mentality." You are demonstrating that in this case.
Excusé?
Whom am I blaming, and for what? I'm not saying that it's women's fault that some men have RRs. I'm not agreeing with the reasoning behind the RRs.

All I'm saying is that humans are difficult to work with all the time, and we are constantly making accommodations for each other. Mild RRs (such as would allow a man to train in a dojo with women, and treat them respectfully as fellow human beings, but not train with them) are just another facet of humanity that we find annoying, but tolerate in each other because we also have facets that others find annoying.

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Your Logic: It must be her fault that she was discriminated against because she showed up to the dojo alone.
Huh?
When did I say that it was anyone's fault? I'm saying that she's not going to get to train, either way. It's not her fault - it's just the way the social dynamic would work out in the situation you've been describing.

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Blame the Victim Logic: It is the fault of the rape victim for being raped because she went to the bar alone.
Is this how you're trying to justify your comparison of allowing men with RRs on the mat to being raped in the locker room?

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No. She would get to train with the instructor. Yes, the instructor would train with her when his fellow bretheren were not in class.
She gets to train with the instructor when they're there, too - she just doesn't get as much of his or her attention.

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You are just wrong here. Despite this issue, we train at a pretty darn good dojo. I'm not going to leave to train at a podunk hole in the wall dojo with mediocre instruction because 3 people out of 120 do want to not train with me. That's just ridiculous.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. You're claiming that you're being drastically harmed because "...3 people out of 120..." do not want to train with you. Suffer.

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They have there own aikido club at their mosque, where they set their own rules. Guess what one of their rules are? Women are not allowed to practice aikido at all.
Have you ever asked them why they also want to train at your dojo?

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You see I'm talking about legal objective reasonableness not just what a particular person subjectively believes as reasonable.
And, of course, your opinion is sooo much more objective and reasonable than mine.

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Cleanliness is part of the etiquette when you join a dojo. Getting in good shape is part of expectation of joining a dojo.
So is training with everyone and bowing to the shomen.

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A school should not feel compelled to discriminate against one group (women) in favor of another group (extreme Islamic beliefs). Thus, expectations of this is unreasonable.
I agree; however, I'm not sure that disaccommodating one group slightly, (especially when there are 117 other people willing to train with them) so that another group can benefit greatly, quite matches your 1:1 setup of discrimination above.

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RR guy can decide join in the training with his female partners.
No, he can't. I'm an atheist, so I do think that religion is largely a matter of choice - but I don't expect people to just drop their entire belief system so that they can train in my dojo. Especially when they come from a religion whose fundamentalist sect (and that is what we're talking about, here) says that apostates should be killed by their own families.

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Or, RR guy can also choose to train at his mosque dojo where his views can not just be fully accomodated but fully practiced.
Again, have you asked these guys *why* they don't do that? Maybe your dojo is better. Maybe the hours at your dojo are the only ones these guys can work with.

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What RR people are not telling you is that they can ritually cleanse themselves afterwards and that it would not be considered halal (forbidden) to train with their female partners. Actually it's considered haram (allowable) if they live in a country where their religious beliefs do not dominate. So when they are in the minority they are allowed to touch women so long as they do the ritual cleansing later on in the day. A conservative, but not extreme, Muslim would do this. A modernist Muslim would not be bothered at all. It is only when a person who holds a more extreme view will they consider it halal to touch women in the first place.
If the only issue for these guys is having to undergo ritual cleansing later (and if that's as simple as it sounds), then yes: they should be the ones to bend a little. Since the only Muslims I've known personally were of the liberal stripe, I don't have any knowledge of that specific issue.

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...it is also the loss of the other students when you can't use him as a demo uke.
And, as I said before, if he wasn't allowed to train at all, the other students still wouldn't get to see him used as a demo uke.
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