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Old 12-23-2009, 08:14 PM   #309
"Been there Done that"
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Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
WTF?
No, sorry - having someone decline training with you due to religious restrictions is NOT the same as being raped in the locker room. I would highly suggest that you talk to someone with experience at a rape crisis center if you think otherwise.

I don't think so. So why would that kind of logic apply here?
I have worked with rape victims. If you are familiar with working in a rape crisis center then you are familiar with the notion of "blame the victim mentality." You are demonstrating that in this case.

I am attempting to illustrate that you are blaming the woman in this case for being discrimnated against just like people like to blame a rape victim for being raped. You are offering up the same logic:

Your Logic: It must be her fault that she was discriminated against because she showed up to the dojo alone.

Blame the Victim Logic: It is the fault of the rape victim for being raped because she went to the bar alone.

Quote:
No. If the two others did not show up at all, she would still be doing the same thing - practicing her stick work alone. If those two guys *don't* have religious restrictions, great! Three people get to train. But someone without religious restrictions is not going to put them aside based on 'Sensei Says.'
No. She would get to train with the instructor. Yes, the instructor would train with her when his fellow bretheren were not in class.

Quote:
"Damn, I need to find another dojo."
not
"Damn, these guys really need to accommodate me."
Because if the people with religious restrictions outnumber those without, it is the latter that are being 'accommodated.'
You are just wrong here. Despite this issue, we train at a pretty darn good dojo. I'm not going to leave to train at a podunk hole in the wall dojo with mediocre instruction because 3 people out of 120 do want to not train with me. That's just ridiculous.

The men also have another accomodation. The men with RR already have a place where they can train while applying their belief systems. They have there own aikido club at their mosque, where they set their own rules. Guess what one of their rules are? Women are not allowed to practice aikido at all.

And they are more than welcome to practice this in their mosque. They are more than welcome to apply the laws of Sharia in their own mosques and homes. But just not at my dojo.

And, you were already told by someone in this thread where those where RR outnumber those without RR - they do NOT accomodate those without RR.

Quote:
Yeah, but you don't want to.
You see I'm talking about legal objective reasonableness not just what a particular person subjectively believes as reasonable. Especially, how this might apply at a dojo facing possibly losing their 501(C)(3) status or facing a religious discirmination lawsuit. It is reasonable to expect a sensei to tell stinky person to clean up. And, they can't lose 501(c)(3) over it. Which makes stinky person a bad example. Same with overweight person. And it would be reasonable for a sensei to tell them to get in shape and work on their stamina. Cleanliness is part of the etiquette when you join a dojo. Getting in good shape is part of expectation of joining a dojo.

In aikido men and women train together with a lot of physical contact. It is part of the expectation of the training. And when you say I can not partake in that training because someone else with extreme religious views doesn't want to be discriminated against then I am being discriminated against, too. And that is not reasonable. A school should not feel compelled to discriminate against one group (women) in favor of another group (extreme Islamic beliefs). Thus, expectations of this is unreasonable.

Quote:
I absolutely agree - for example, if there's one religious restriction guy (RR) and one no restriction guy (NR), the woman shouldn't have to sit out and never get to train; NR, to be fair, should train with both and RR will have to spend some time sitting out. But the woman will not get to train with RR no matter what happens - whether accommodations are made, or not.
Actually there are other choices. RR guy can decide join in the training with his female partners. Or, RR guy can also choose to train at his mosque dojo where his views can not just be fully accomodated but fully practiced.

What RR people are not telling you is that they can ritually cleanse themselves afterwards and that it would not be considered halal (forbidden) to train with their female partners. Actually it's considered haram (allowable) if they live in a country where their religious beliefs do not dominate. So when they are in the minority they are allowed to touch women so long as they do the ritual cleansing later on in the day. A conservative, but not extreme, Muslim would do this. A modernist Muslim would not be bothered at all. It is only when a person who holds a more extreme view will they consider it halal to touch women in the first place.

Quote:
His loss.
Yes, it is, but it is also the loss of the other students when you can't use him as a demo uke. I prefer to use all students in class as a demo ukes. Thus as an instructor I was affected.
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