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Old 12-22-2009, 09:04 PM   #34
Toby Threadgill
Location: Evergreen, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 166
United_States
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Hello,

Ellis stated:

"Two things: That's what I've been told by Toby Threadgill - AND - Akiyama as well as the founder of Yoshin Koryu, in particular, traveled to Southern China."

I think I need to clarify something here. Takamura sensei told me many things over a whisky, but how many of these things would hold up under academic scrutiny is difficult to say. He was not the most forthcoming when it came to differentiating between those things that were his personal opinions, versus those things passed to him by way of someone closer to the source, like his grandfather Ohbata Shigeta. Frankly, I would prefer we find much more authoritative support for Yoshin ryu's connection to southern China martial traditions than what Takamura sensei told me over drinks in casual conversation.

Akiyama Yoshin ryu and Nakamura Yoshin Koryu present several interesting mysteries. Some budo historians dismiss the stories of a Chinese connection to Yoshin ryu as a modern creation, meant to bolster their reputation. Others historians point out that these stories are actually old, and even the idea of an art as influential as Yoshin ryu being closely connected to a non-Japanese source is rather convincing on its own, especially given the Japanese tendency towards ethnocentrism. Frankly I believe the Yoshin ryu lore surrounding a "Chinese connection" to be accurate but I am certainly no authority on CMA. It will take a serious investigation by many knowledgeable people to better evaluate this possibility.

FWIW, Outside my personal experience in Yoshin ryu, I hold in my possession many of the devices needed to make a more authoritative determination on this topic. I have in my possession a diverse collection of densho from Yoshin ryu and related schools. I recently acquired a very rare one I've never heard mention of before. It is dated Meiwa 2 (1765) and titled Yoshin ryu Seikan (or Shizuma) maki (静間巻). Budo historian Shingo Ohgami believes the title refers to the Yoshin ryu's core teachings. This densho's contents and age could provide unique insight into the Yoshin ryu prior to the influences that occurred during the late Edo period.

I am in the process of producing a DVD of TSYR's omote Nairiki no Gyo (not the ura or gokui). Although this DVD is intended for the TSYR membership, I could be persuaded to make it available to uniquely knowledgeable individuals interested in evaluating any similarities that might exist between the TSYR Nairiki no Gyo and IT training methods in CMA.

Regards,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 12-22-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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