Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Kevin,
I'm going to disagree with you in quite a few places. BJJ isn't aiki ... and by that small statement, it can't be aikijujutsu.
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So, no, I don't believe those good jujutsu people that have been mentioned here by you and Toby have aiki. I think they have skills that, maybe, someone can define as "internal" in some manner and that these skills are very soft, relaxed, and require a basic pathway system inside the body. But, IMO, they aren't aiki.
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WTF....????
Mark, how can you make this statement? It is absurd from the very get go. You do know Kito ryu, TSR and Yoshin ryu all taught various forms of IT/aiki? Why couldn't there be some manifestation of aiki in BJJ? Do you have enough direct hands on experience to make such a prognostication? I think not.
The reason this topic is so interesting to so many is because these skills have such broad application. The message Dan, Mike, Ark and others, including me, keep harping at is these skills are foundational. They have existed in many diverse pursuits for a long time but the problem has been how they are taught and why they have not been more accessible. Ellis's recent book presents a compelling story that addresses how these skills either remained underground ( in the koryu schools ) or were "Hidden in Plain Sight" (in modern budo traditions like aikido). Apparantly they are still hidden from some people who love to wax eloquently about them.
I have actual hands on experience with a few of the top BJJ guys around. I likewise have had decades of hands on experience with several instructors in Daito ryu/aikijujutsu who are attributed with manifesting the high levels of "aiki". ( This includes two headmasters. ) Plus, I'm no spring chicken myself given my teacher and his internal skills, so.......I dismiss your opinion absolutely.
Many years ago I met a guy who was an advanced student of a respected aikijujutsu headmaster. We talked about the recent hype concerning Gracie jujutsu. At the time I only had cursory knowledge of BJJ and told him so. He told me he attended a Gracie seminar and was going to visit the Gracie Academy in California. In time he had the opportunity to roll with Rickson, Royce and Helio Gracie in person. He later told me, "Some of the top Gracie guys are doing aikijujutsu on the floor It's amazing. The principles of internal body manipulation and the utilization of their base are the same. You've just got to rewire how you look at their skills to recognize the principles." He then told me about a drill he participated in where Helio would completely off balance him in the guard without even moving. ( If that's not "aiki" I don't know what is! ) The only criticism he had for the Gracies was how they were teaching these skills. He said it was almost like these skills were reserved for the Gracie family members and a few highly ranked others. He said only this limited group of top practitioners seemed to be capable of manifesting what he deemed aiki principles. ( Does any of this sound familiar? ) He said Rorion eventually asked him where he had trained before because he was asking questions they only expected from very advanced students. He explained to Rorion what Daito ryu was and what aikijujutsu principles were. He said Rorion nodded with a wry smile and responded that these sorts of questions were best reserved for him and his brothers.
No aiki in BJJ?
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Everyone wants to segregate, to put budo skills in nice little boxes. This is this, and that is that, with a wall of separation between them. In fact the development and application of body skills are not black and white like you seem to think they are but instead all shades of grey. The common thread to determine what Kevin is talking about is in the principles driving these diverse "IS" skills. Many different traditions Chinese - Japanese - whatever....have their own name for these internally based skills and "may" apply them in a unique or particular manner determined by the specifics of each martial tradition. To claim that someone in BJJ can't be manifesting "aiki" in one form or another demonstrates you either can't recognize these skills outside your limited understanding of them or that you must be talking about a different "aiki" than I or any of the other experienced practitioners here talk about and teach.
( FWIW - I hate terms like aiki because no one can define exactly what "aiki" is. (I say tomato, you say tomato. ) I prefer internal skills because that is more accurate reference to what so many people are talking about. )
Toby Threadgill / TSYR