Hit the post button by mistake too early:
[Taking a simple thought exercise as an example:
Let's say you have two people, A&B.
A & B are facing each other, feet shoulder width apart, knees relatively straight, hands down by sides.
A then reaches over and holds B down with both hands applying a dumb force (non-jin), to hold the wrists down. If you were A how would you off balance them, and take their balance? Would you "have" to move the arms to do so?
Rob John, would you apply atari? To get under?
No, I do not know how to go all Sagawa and get agete up and all over their asses.