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Lorien Lowe wrote:
Ahmad -
I have trained with Muslim men and women before who have interpreted things the same way that you do. They were, in fact, some of the nicest people I've ever known and their kids were shockingly well-adjusted. However, there *are* other interpretations out there. The Koran, the Bible, and a host of other religious texts can be interpreted in many ways, and it is far from unusual to see Jews, Christians, Muslims (and atheists!) who take the extreme view and think that women are dirty, unintelligent, over-emotional, etc.
The question isn't whether or not this happens; we know that it does. The question isn't whether or not the people who do this try to justify it with one holy text or another; we know that they do (even if we don't accept their particular interpretation).
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Agreed - and making a lot of Sense.
I doubt how often will a person of the latter type - closed to any change - arrive to see M.A. practice or any such activity, not to speak of joining it in a Dojo which does not follow his own beliefs.
Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
The question of this thread is how *we* react when someone who takes this view comes to our (non-profit) dojo and requests or demands that we rearrange our practice in order to accommodate their interpretation of their religion.
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There is a difference between demanding or even just requesting others to rearrange their practice, and between letting someone in the dojo train in a way adjusted to his limitations.
So some trainee does not touch women, in some cases, HE (no-one else) will have to wait a turn and not train because he can only train with women. In fact, he is practically discriminating against himself (from my own experience practicing with Women often has additional important qualities most men lack) just were is the harm in that?
Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
Amir-
I don't know about the Hebrew translation; my citations were from an English translation of a Christian Old Testament, and it clearly states that a woman on her menses, anything she touches, and anyone who touches anything that she has touched, are all unclean and must be 'purified' by blood sacrifice; it's clear from the Orthodox in Israel that women can be religiously interpreted as second-class.
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Lorien
The text you brought from the Tora, relates to the blood of the women coming from her womb (either ministration of post pregnancy) being "Taboo". This does not make women "un-clean" as a whole, such interpretation would falsify the text (though one could many such cases). If you ask me, this could be considered as one of the cases in which the Jewish rules tried to create some Hygienic conditions which was huge innovation back then.
Yet again, I do not claim that there are no discriminations against Women in Judaism. It is just that you concentrate on the things one can solve with ease, without imposing limitations on others.
Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
There's plenty of other stuff in the Koran, the Old and New Testaments, the Hadith, and pretty much any other extensive religous text that you search through (heck, there are even Buddhist monks that are prohibited from touching women) that can be interpreted pretty negatively towards women by any sect that is inclined in that way. There are even atheists who justify their bad behavior towards women based on 'evolutionary psychology.'
My point of view is not that Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, or atheism are bad; my point of view is that nobody should have a right to rearrange the practice of my dojo to fit their particular belief system. Nobody should be able to say, for example, that since they can only train on Wednesdays due to their schedule, the woman who usually teaches on Wednesdays should swap her schedule around with the male teachers (or quit teaching altogether), and that the female students who also can only train on Wednesdays are just SOL.
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About -- r-arranging -- see my previous answer -- above.
Well, among some very Orthodox (I would call them extreme) Jews, there is the concept of "The bad Emotion" -- which includes any sexual related emotion in any form (If you ask me -- total nonsense and contrary to most of Judaism healthy relation to heterosexual sex in the bible and early traditions). The amazing thing here, those men expect women to take limitations, to help them not to face their "Bad Emotion" -- to stay separated and unseen. In a way, these Orthodox Jews actually follow some Muslims cultures and their special attire for women.
However, I can not see any such Jew coming to learn in a Dojo, not even here in Israel. Those who come are of a different type, much more open, self confident and understanding of the exact boundaries of the limitations they took upon themselves as part of their religion.
It is my belief, that the "sane" / "non-extremist" society should encourage this latter type, and accommodate for it. Even if it requires some very MINOR sacrifice on our side (but one which is answered by a similar step from the religious person -- finding his own way to compromise --with all the exceptions to the laws and loopholes I know Judaism is full of and sure other religions are too).
In my own belief- if one of "us" is unwilling to look for such solutions at all, he should know that he chose to discriminate. He may have a valid reason or may consider the issue fundamental (for example, my sensei will waive bowing to objects, but not to people. He says the latter is about respect)
Amir