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Old 10-24-2009, 09:51 AM   #67
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Speaking generally again, Rob's hypothetical is a good example because it is demonstrates the basic concept of "unifying" one's self with another... and is the first thing shown/taught in Aikido. Most Aikido folk would/should recognize this as a standing variation of kokyu-ho.
Actually it is an example fraught with misunderstanding. There are external ways to handle that force / there are internal ways to handle that force and both can handle and capture the guy exerting on you with dumb and even trained force-hence the reason so many are fooled or confused by so called “expert” martial artists.
It's another reason I am often disappointed with these discussions. You set up an example and talk about THEE way to do it as if there is only one internal method or means to accomplish the task and one external and they are delineated as absolutes. Than you sit around and wait for some approved guy to put his approved stamp on it and say it is correct. Granted there are correct means and commonalities that are internal, no disagreement from me; but talking about it as a singular thing is just nonsense.

Getting under
Getting under with intent will do it-external will not cut it there- and it becomes a very potent little ditty to use. The "straights" (and those just learning} will move the body down to help them feel the down and up as a vector and never move forward from there. Maybe some will teach to "just use intent"... forever, which is just as stupid. I can stand stalk straight and make people rise by getting under without moving; many of you have felt me do it...and yet if you try that BS in grappling you are the moron for your effort. In that venue you need intent and movement. So how ironic is it to use movement joined with intent at the newbie level, to get to pure intent without movement that does some pretty startling things in a trained body, so that in the end you can arrive at movement again. Only this time it is pure intent driven movement. At any stage in between you need a coach, need to check, and 99% of the MA population will be clueless to see, and most will not be able to feel, except to say What the______?

Capturing
You can stand there and use your frame in a way that will lift him off of his base into you and then control him. This is done by and large without overall use of structure and uses frame and intent.
But then you can stand there stalk straight and breath him in, without really using frame much at all (other than basic support, instead you are using a trained connection between your hands, feet, through dantien (hara)

Entering / leaving
Or you can capture him with just a little breath work (or frame) and if you know how to use your connection you can enter him -while leaving; causing a rotation in his center
Or
You can "set" a contact point (there are different reasons for thinking this way) and cause rotation around himself or you
These "contact points" can happen anywhere along a spiraling arc at any point in your body; making for some interesting work in "actual fighting (MMA).
Now at any point in time, you are not going to just get "dumb force" for a grip either- so you need to add more intent driven motion to move people. Dumb force is a term I find to be rather "dumb" in itself; there are many grapplers who have learned some basic soft jin and even segmented assigned movement and heightened listening skills. It is very crude quasi internal work, but it is anything but dumb, and why they are such a good test for internal people. I have met some masters of arts with supposed internal power and I could handle them with soft "dumb force" and others where I had to be "on"

Trying to build a consensus among the latest IP' aiki craze is about as effective as was building a consensus among the MA community who didn't have a clue about IP/Aiki.
Just remember you all were among the former, before you became the later.
You have some internal guys showing you interesting things, Maybe you have one who can't or wont fight with what he supposedly knows, a few who will fight and move with what they supposedly know. Of the ones who can and will fight you, what part is basic jin skill, what part is more developed but just linear skills, what part is a more fully developed compliment of skills, and you are trying to figure out what's what.

I look at films of three or four of the acknowledged Japanese art "experts" teaching traditional arts with internals and I just see basic linear movement. And read some books on “Ki in the martial arts” by yet another expert that don't address “ki in the martial arts” at all. So I sit and shrug; if you say anything it makes divided camps and their supporters argue "You just have to feel him its amazing" It -is- amazing to those who can't do it. What am I going to say "I'm amazed that you are so amazed?
And the net becomes contentious.
So I might not be so sure of exactly who you are trying to build a consensus with. Some are for you and some are for themselves as the new experts doling out advice. The community has choices and resources; so get out and about and test-the smart guys are already figuring things out.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-24-2009 at 10:04 AM.
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