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Old 09-22-2009, 11:49 AM   #47
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Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" - Takeda Sokaku

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I knew full well that my ideas of Takeda making it up as he went along was not going to be received well in any venue. But the evidence is obvious and pervasive. The diversity of the syllabus is the most obvious, the ever growing number of scrolls, the creation of the Menkyo-all while Takeda was alive. No traceable lineage line, no extent scrolls predating Takeda. There are other anecdotal stories-like Rennis being told Takeda ryu morphed into Daito ryu-kicking around in the weeds as well; there is an early interview in AJ with discussions of selecting the name. Other hints where there was a supposed discussion between Kotaro and Kodo about the early scrolls. The obvious and weird stories of never repeating a technique! You can almost take the entirety of the Daito ryu story and put up against more common norms in Koryu and it's all damn strange. The single validation is the immense and undeniable presence of Takeda. Both his family and clan history and his phenomenal skill.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Are you discussing the Mokuroku they were given by Takeda or the syllabus they taught?
Where does the ten Gen of Sagawa and Sagawa's method of imparting Aiki, match up with the hidden mokuroku, goshin yo-no-te etc. that he was given? And how does that compare with the Hidden Mokuroku of Tokimune (which he states he re-organized) and their public and private opinion of the aiki of the Kodokai and Roppokai, and all of that compared to the syllabus of the Kodokai and then compared to the Soden of the Takumakai? Now add in Ueshiba!!
And where do they all teach in a consistent, organized, step-by-step process that matches the scrolls, school to school, as in the koryu that follow their menjo?
Now there's an interesting discussion. Where did Takeda make it up as he went along -and his students (who got it) simply followed their teacher's example?

I suspect that the ones who were bright enough to pursue it (after Takeda gave them the methods for internal power/ aiki) and develop it- walked into another of the shining attributes of this work. Awareness, inventiveness, a universal potential in all things, and continued growth. Internal power / aiki is formless and it continues to both create and reveal. The same talent and ability that first imparted it to you doesn't simply go away...it grows.
You simply keep changing.

Dan
If I understand correctly, the sword was also "on its way out", so to speak. The incident with Takeda and the workers highlights this. Without the sword, perhaps Takeda took to unarmed to further his skill? To do that, you have to work with something, some sort of unarmed techniques.

Maybe those with a better understanding of koryu can correct me here, but wouldn't koryu be more strict in how it was taught? If Takeda wanted some free reign to "play" and keep learning, it would have been a rather weird choice for him to do so through a koryu.

So, maybe Takeda took the option that gave him the most room to do what he wanted -- create his own way using the aiki body skills. And maybe that "complex" waza was just Takeda seeing what he could do with his aiki? I'm sure even Takeda kept learning and growing in his abilities and skills.
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