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Old 08-27-2009, 10:48 AM   #6
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 694
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Hi Ron,
these are some of my scattered thoughts. are they of any use to you, or anyone? I am a bag of marbles open on a table..

Ron wrote:
...opportunity to test the product of this type of training is Tenchinage. Here we have the opportunity to use
-sinking (aiki sage) and
-rising (aiki-age) power, as well as
-splitting uke's body and power along the central axis,
-using the power of the in breath while
-connecting that to outer movement...
Well, I really do want to be corrected; if i'm wrong. i'm reluctant to talk about this cause it really shows how piss poor the understanding of internals are..but maybe, our betters will step in to help (me) floundering..
MS encouraged people to 'talk it out' so i'll give it another shot. I think the nuts and bolts is important.. but maybe useless and too difficult online. despite my better judgement... here goes

Well, I hear what MS and others talking about various types of internal power methods and schemes..but I think it is a safe assumption, since aikido came from DR, that DR body methods are compatible (amongst others?) with the desired aiki of aikido. What I think it is that we are hunting for. So..let me (please) pick up on that..Dan has kindly planted many seeds throughout the web…even here…and I'll put some in this post.(hope it's okay; I apologize in advance if not)

First of all; talking about this stuff is hard. For instance From<
Dan wrote:
It is important to know what is connected to what and what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage
I take these words as a basis for nomenclature defining the kind of internal chaining that will result in transfer of power. I understand this (I hope) as being the underlying foundational type of 'thing' going on in both aiki age and aiki sage. agree? Underlying this is an obvious need for structure. This is a constant in all this work, and never goes away. Structure/alignment is critical and to be taken as a given.

in my humble understanding of sinking and rising energy these are powered internally by the hara region as well as knowing how ‘what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage". First the slack has to come out of you, from your shugyo training. This is the body conditioning and 'the changed body' that is pointed to. As that happens then (it was written) smaller and smaller movements of you will have more profound effects on uke. Good basic technique of tenchi nage will have to take out the slack to get access to his center..I think this always and still remains a prerequisite to direct-center-to-center manipulation. Even at high level I assume. (agree?)

I don't know what to say. I think that when you take the mechanical slack (i.e. joints aligned, kokyu established in uke) then you go into what MS terms the suit (I do not recall Dan using any term like/equivalent (to) that. agree?). I think that once the low-order mechanical slack is removed..then (/simultaneously) remove slack in the suit; by inflating it with breath pressure (i.e. similar to intra-abdomal pressure of valsalva maneuver, but with epiglottis open).
A part of this is the hara/dantien region. Pumping the hara region. Actually; i think this should be on from before the beginning of the encounter. (agree?). I currently think of the hara as a trim-pot (/tuning mechanism) or bridge between strictly the alignment (/kokyu or groundpath) stuff and the bodysuit stuff. It allows these two systems to 'mix' and/or communicate and/or change incoming/outgoing forces. I called that the 'Intent System' previously. My model may be faulty; buyer beware.
re: Breath pressure: This pressure can be moved by will power (via dantien rotation.. when structure is established.. this I think is moving the "ki" to where it is needed). I think in tenchinage it needs to go both upward in the aiki-age arm and down in the aiki sage arm. This points to a splitting of your power upwards and downwards. I am not sure on that. Perhaps downward is more passive; just using body-weight and kokyu connection. I do not know.

in regards to the splitting your body into aiki-age and aiki-sage.
(again talking waaay over my pay grade… but hoping for correction(s) and some interesting conversation)
-I think we should consider the model of the internal-flows (/fields of influence of the body); where Dan talks about dual-helixes in the body.
again; Here<
Dan wrote:
"that unarmed training mode l of cross-line work, turning and drawing through the waist to leave the weight centered and non dedicated"
"The same paths lead to the use of spiral energy in the body in paired and solo training. It is only a part of a more complicated training involving uses from even a simple self-rotation, to spiral energy from feet to groin to waist to spine to hand along two different lines that also converge differently front and back. It is important to know what is connected to what and what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage
okay; I'm going to totally butcher it; but I hope you know what I mean (at least; and please correct me!). So; each side of the body supports the other; and you are suspended in the middle on the spine, acting like a scale. part of the ground path strength comes thru each side of the hips/groin area as you rotate around the spine. one side goes up, the other down. (inside yourself)

I think the dual-helixes of internal flowing go in different directions, simultaneously; one resulting in rising aiki-age and one resulting in falling aiki-sage. This ultimately powered by the moving of 'ki' pressure where you need it, as well as the 'moving and drawing-in' that was defined above.
This results in loading uke in both directions simultaneously.

I do not understand the relation of these to the aiki technique itself.

re: open/close
just thoughts:
-I can see a close when on the entry you close and draw uke in front of yoursef.
-I can see the open, on the rising hand; when you turn your hips on the rising hand entry
-I can see another closing of the body on the lead into and follow through of the projection.

..I'm done and more than a little embarrassed … hoping something good can some of this…

What do you think Ron?

p.s. i'm well f*n aware that yakking and doing it are 2 different things. but you gotta know what you're after. don't ya'?
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