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rob_liberti · 08-04-2009, 09:20 AM

I do not in any way judge Mary and Ron negatively for the student of theirs that I met. I judge that student to be excellent for aikido or any gendi budo for that matter. And Mary, I would love to take you up on your offer. I'll try to bring Dan too when his home life calms down a bit.

Mary, I'm absolutely clear that you are satisfied with your level of IT, with the speed at which you have developed your level of IT, and with the speed at which you have developed a level of IT in your students.

What I was attempting to say was that the amount/depth of IT has been dramatically increased and the speed to develop such a significant level of IT has been dramatically reduced making a much more deep level of IT possible within a lifetime - to the absurd point that compared to that level, I can say that pretty much everyone - including 1.5 million members of aikido - do not have IT.

David, I don't find that question disrespectful at all. Here is my perspective. Gleason sensei learned by kinesthetic perception, a ton of research and dedication, and his own brillance to approach aikido from the perspective of manifesting principles he gleened out of his deep research.

He was teaching things like sending energy upward into the uke's body on touch, and cutting the uke with your mind for kotegaeshi years before I started learning Dan's step by step approach to being able to do such things effectively and quickly. He was significantly further along in his ability than most I had ever come across in aikido. Gleason sensei did not have the benefit of such step by step instruction for his 40 years or so of research and basically had to re-invent a lot of IT. Since Dan's influence, some things have changed dramatically, but the orientation of Gleason sensei's approach is still very much inline with what it had been. It's much more of a faster/efficient path toward the baseline skill. This is exciting because he (and I guess we all) can take IT much further than he would have been able to otherwise.

As far as where the breakdown occured, Mark Murray has addressed that a lot right here on aikiweb. I can give an example from my own knowledge. My understanding is that Saotome sensei was told a hint by O-sensei to try to squeeze his anus together for added stability. I have been at seminars where Saotome sensei has suggested that kind of hint to us. While this kind of hint might help people get started down the right mental path of where to look for stability, that advice was not ideal for developing structure and intent. So my guess is that the breakdown started right at the top, in an older type of mindset where information had to be basically stolen by the student as apposed to hande to them.

Both Dan's and Gleason sensei's approach always has been to hold nothing back, and let people excell by the amount of hard work they put in. I have no issues with Saotome sensei in this area as well, I fully suspect he was not given a step by step approach to follow either, and has done quite an amazing job with what he could steal.

As far as Yamaguchi sensei goes, he was a koryu man before he met O-sensei. I suspect he was able to make connections with what he was learning that gave him a significant advantage to learning what was and what was not being taught. Also, I think that what was being taught by O-sensei in general declined over time, which Mark Murray has addressed in many threads right here on aikiweb.

Some other examples would be Tohei sensei. He had to look outside of aikido for a lot of information. Seems to be that teaching IT basically caused his split. What I seem to be unable to explain adequately so far is that the IT that he was teaching seems to have been a lot more of WHATs (weight underside, keep one point, extend, etc..) and not very specific and helpful HOWs.

Keeping one point, is far less than 1/2 the picture. How about the upper center? How about the breath work to unite the upper and lower center. What about windings and suspending yourself in the middle while you move? I read a lot of his books and trained in a ki society dojo for a while and nerver heard or experienced anything like that. (They were impressive compared to the norm of aikido for sure, but nothing like the level of IT that we are talking about - that I'm certain O-sensei had very well developed.) That's what we are saying is IT. And so, IT is really missing in aikido - all 1.5 million or so - with extremely few exceptions.

And now IT is available. If that is your interest then there are paths to get IT now. Dan, Mike, and Ark are doing workshops. I would strongly suggest you attend them and then tell us if you have IT or if you have ever experienced that level of IT in aikido.

Rob

08-04-2009, 09:20 AM	#511
rob_liberti Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut Location: East Haven, CT Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,402 Offline	Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido? I do not in any way judge Mary and Ron negatively for the student of theirs that I met. I judge that student to be excellent for aikido or any gendi budo for that matter. And Mary, I would love to take you up on your offer. I'll try to bring Dan too when his home life calms down a bit. Mary, I'm absolutely clear that you are satisfied with your level of IT, with the speed at which you have developed your level of IT, and with the speed at which you have developed a level of IT in your students. What I was attempting to say was that the amount/depth of IT has been dramatically increased and the speed to develop such a significant level of IT has been dramatically reduced making a much more deep level of IT possible within a lifetime - to the absurd point that compared to that level, I can say that pretty much everyone - including 1.5 million members of aikido - do not have IT. David, I don't find that question disrespectful at all. Here is my perspective. Gleason sensei learned by kinesthetic perception, a ton of research and dedication, and his own brillance to approach aikido from the perspective of manifesting principles he gleened out of his deep research. He was teaching things like sending energy upward into the uke's body on touch, and cutting the uke with your mind for kotegaeshi years before I started learning Dan's step by step approach to being able to do such things effectively and quickly. He was significantly further along in his ability than most I had ever come across in aikido. Gleason sensei did not have the benefit of such step by step instruction for his 40 years or so of research and basically had to re-invent a lot of IT. Since Dan's influence, some things have changed dramatically, but the orientation of Gleason sensei's approach is still very much inline with what it had been. It's much more of a faster/efficient path toward the baseline skill. This is exciting because he (and I guess we all) can take IT much further than he would have been able to otherwise. As far as where the breakdown occured, Mark Murray has addressed that a lot right here on aikiweb. I can give an example from my own knowledge. My understanding is that Saotome sensei was told a hint by O-sensei to try to squeeze his anus together for added stability. I have been at seminars where Saotome sensei has suggested that kind of hint to us. While this kind of hint might help people get started down the right mental path of where to look for stability, that advice was not ideal for developing structure and intent. So my guess is that the breakdown started right at the top, in an older type of mindset where information had to be basically stolen by the student as apposed to hande to them. Both Dan's and Gleason sensei's approach always has been to hold nothing back, and let people excell by the amount of hard work they put in. I have no issues with Saotome sensei in this area as well, I fully suspect he was not given a step by step approach to follow either, and has done quite an amazing job with what he could steal. As far as Yamaguchi sensei goes, he was a koryu man before he met O-sensei. I suspect he was able to make connections with what he was learning that gave him a significant advantage to learning what was and what was not being taught. Also, I think that what was being taught by O-sensei in general declined over time, which Mark Murray has addressed in many threads right here on aikiweb. Some other examples would be Tohei sensei. He had to look outside of aikido for a lot of information. Seems to be that teaching IT basically caused his split. What I seem to be unable to explain adequately so far is that the IT that he was teaching seems to have been a lot more of WHATs (weight underside, keep one point, extend, etc..) and not very specific and helpful HOWs. Keeping one point, is far less than 1/2 the picture. How about the upper center? How about the breath work to unite the upper and lower center. What about windings and suspending yourself in the middle while you move? I read a lot of his books and trained in a ki society dojo for a while and nerver heard or experienced anything like that. (They were impressive compared to the norm of aikido for sure, but nothing like the level of IT that we are talking about - that I'm certain O-sensei had very well developed.) That's what we are saying is IT. And so, IT is really missing in aikido - all 1.5 million or so - with extremely few exceptions. And now IT is available. If that is your interest then there are paths to get IT now. Dan, Mike, and Ark are doing workshops. I would strongly suggest you attend them and then tell us if you have IT or if you have ever experienced that level of IT in aikido. Rob Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-04-2009 at 09:32 AM.