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Old 07-12-2009, 05:32 AM   #30
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And where did Takeda get the "aiki" stuff? He certainly didn't invent it's been around for many generations. I think this constant BS about insinuating DR into discussions about ki/kokyu has a limited utility and after that it is clearly a "my style" sort of tangent that wastes time. Ueshiba certainly got some of his training from DR, but if you look at his douka he gives the credit where it belongs.... to a classical and traditional study of these skills that far precedes DR. I'm frankly embarrassed that the "Ueshiba owes everything to DR" stuff has gone on so long. I say let the people who keep bringing it up live with it from now on for what it is and what they are.

I think it's too late. You and Dan have way overplayed the issue of DR and Ueshiba. It's yours now. How many times have diplomatic indications been made that it's time to stop?

In terms of the list I was talking about of ki/kokyu skills in Aikido, it's got nothing to do with DR, Chinese predecessors, and so on... it's a clinical list of what we see people in Aikido doing. I have a contribution of something I saw Ueshiba doing that certainly did not come from DR, but I'll save it until I see a legitimate functional effort about *Aikido* being made in something like the AikiWiki. If I don't save it, it's a certainty that "Oh, we do that, too" will surface in a revised history, so I'll pass for the moment. Aikido is Aikido... let's drop the idea that Aikido is its precursors in the same good spirit that we don't mention that DR is its precursors.


Mike Sigman
Reread Ledyard's post about "If it doesn't look like Aikido, smell like Aikido, and taste like Aikido, it's not Aikido."

Now, I'm the first to state that I know very little of the Chinese arts, but here's a short list of things I've never seen in the Chinese arts that can be found by those doing Daito ryu aiki:

Lying on the ground with people holding arms, feet, and neck and then throwing them off of you.

Sitting on the ground cross legged and having people push your head and try to push you over.

Holding a piece of paper or cloth and throwing someone who grabs that paper or cloth.

Ueshiba did these things. You wanted some sort of list and I started one. Now, you're stating that this list, just because it reflects Daito ryu aiki should be renamed and all connections to "Daito ryu" should be dropped.

1. If you're going to research how Ueshiba did these "physical phenomenon" to show ki, then you should be looking at his peers, too, who also did the exact same things. You want to look and feel like Ueshiba's aikido? Then you have to have at least the foundation to do that *and* you have to understand how he was using those skills. So far, there's only one other area that replicates the "physical phenomenon" of Ueshiba -- his Daito ryu aiki peers.

2. I posted, put the info out there, showed where to look, what was being done. You post that I should stop saying Daito ryu aiki. But you gave exactly no references to Chinese arts doing the "physical phenomenon" that Ueshiba had done. You have said that while the basics are the same, the way it is used can be different. Well, I'm taking you at your word and showing where people can go to see how Ueshiba learned to use Daito ryu aiki. It would be very helpful that, rather than keep harping on and on about how you don't like Daito ryu aiki mentioned, if you'd provide examples of any other art doing the same things. Not just suggesting that there are.

3. If we started talking about Ueshiba's spiritual views, we'd have to focus a great bit on Oomoto kyo. It's that simple. While we would be talking about ancient kotodama, we'd still be talking about Ueshiba's kotodama through the filter of Oomoto kyo. Sure you'd get a better understanding of kotodama basics from studying other sources, but in the end, when you wanted to use kotodama the way Ueshiba used it, you're going to have to filter it through Oomoto kyo. Same-same with Daito ryu aiki. Yeah, it's nice that you can get the skills from other sources, like Taiji, but when you want to know how Ueshiba utilized those skills, you have to do them from the filter of Daito ryu aiki.

Otherwise, you'll be setting up a list of "physical phenomenon" of ki skills that would be like someone else, for instance - Tohei.

NOTE: PLEASE don't take that sentence as disparaging Tohei. I'm NOT! I have great respect for him. But, he didn't do all the same things that Ueshiba did (as far as I know) in terms of "physical phenomenon" of ki skills. Can you do some great Aikido without replicating Ueshiba's "physical phenomenon" of ki skills? Sure. Just look at Tohei, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Saotome, etc, etc. But this part of the thread wasn't about doing good Aikido.
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