Thread: Shiko Training
View Single Post
Old 06-24-2009, 11:22 AM   #92
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

I've been traveling and training.

Josh
The two diagrams that are shown in your example; mine and the one Mike nabbed from Mantac Chia's book are different. My model comes from a training model used in DR for paired waza and solo training.
Note* I left out the connection across the chest and back (as well as several other connections) as that drawing was specific to a discussed example on the doku and not meant to convey all details. (See more on the upper cross below)
As for that post discussing the doku
Quote:
Notes from the translator
The aiki cross were two lines in an X- intersecting vertically at their center.
While the translator believes Ueshiba meant to express Izu and Mizu as in/yo he also makes note of the true definitions as springing forth or gushing water. I find the dual meaning interesting. Also interesting were Ueshiba describing the yin and yang of opposing hands.

I can find no descriptions of him covering that the same side hand/foot. They are best treated as opposites as well. Which is of course demonstrable in the cross. FWIW, this is also a path for the way I do Shiko
Cheers
Dan
Hidden in Plain site-revisited
The same paths lead to the use of spiral energy in the body in paired and solo training. It is only a part of a more complicated training involving uses from even a simple self-rotation, to spiral energy from feet to groin to waist to spine to hand along two different lines that also converge differently front and back. It is important to know what is connected to what and what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage, so you don't end up vulnerable with guys that know what you're doing and who will toss you due to the way you train.. I rarely talk about this as well- but there are pictures that display one exercise to specifically do this in DR. It is expressed in photos that Takeda, Hisa, and Ueshiba all curiously decided to "pose in." They are standing there in an exercise form putting the spiral paths -in your face. One of which will be appearing in Ellis new book.
The internet gadflies, in spite of their incessant assertions, and guesses really don't know much of anything about the existence of that training model in DR, nor of moving from the waist to use spiral energy -albeit in a more simplistic manner in various Koryu weapons either.

Since you brought up Mikes point about the upper cross-(although it was not related to my point in that post) you can read more about my own thoughts on "the upper cross" in an earlier post by Rob Jon in the training section here- wherein he asked permission to quote my example of "the upper cross" in use
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...den#post149419
Quote:
The following is a quote from Dan Harden, mma'er who uses Japanese Koryu Weaponary to condition his body for Vale Tudo.
While this was originally written for an Aikidoh forum, he describes very succinctly the body mechanics elaborated above.
******************************************************************************
About the cross or the back / chest area:
Imagine shoving a drive shaft or any pole into a hole in the floor then slide a peg through it horizontally. Next grab the peg as it sticks out left to right with both your hands.
Now imagine the hole you stuck the pole into is attached to an engine with 1000 ft. lb. of torque and I turn it on.
When you get out of hospital with your broken arms healed you can understand how powerful it can be if:
1. the pole is your spine
2. the peg is tension held across the back and chest
3. and the engine is the ground through your legs through your hips that turn the spine or pole at the waist.
Everything attached to it is launched without you dedicating much to the effort in a forward direction. It makes powerful kicks, punches, throws, and shoves without you giving much to lose or have someone take your balance.
You are wholly dedicated without being dedicated.
The frame is strengthened through connections throughout the body which can be strengthened further still through breathing and pressures there. You are using the ground for power. Of course, it is the way you are connected that allows this power to move through the whole body from foot to hand.

The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight. You hold tension in the cross and turn using the ground from your feet through the hips, turning the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). What's attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn into yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.
It's worth noting that the example Rob cited from me was in relation to self-rotation, and non dedicated weight transfer- not spiraling. Also worth noting from that same post is once again Robs discussion of Arks then current teaching of the left-to-left and right-to-right axis in the body. Which I stated earlier and Mike denied it was true. Just as I said earlier here is yet another quote by Rob from three years ago and you can find it on E-budo and in the early Aunkai videos on Shiko training. A training method which I clearly disagreed with and Ark apparently decided to change in his latest video.
Quote:
***Three Axes***
Stabilization of the chest area is directly related to recognizing and
stabilizing three axes.
First, let's define what the three axes are.
The left and right axes are two imaginary lines running from the left
shoulder to the left hipjoint and knee, and the right shoulder to the right hipjoint and knee.
The center axis, as one might imagine, runs from the crown of your head down between your legs.
As noted by me earlier, my mention of the way I train with "cross-line" paths in Shiko were explained to Rob on E-budo in threads there and on the phone. Later my term "cross-line" appeared in their latest video with the axis training now changed to an X pattern. It's all there to read and then listen too
I wish to make this clear
I don't really care much at all about this crap. I was initially hesitant to share, but over time I thought it might be a fair exchange of information. What initially sounded great-has really turned into more ego and protectionism of a different order, now with paying study groups and ranking and private forums and the building of "ditto" heads and more typical Budo divisiveness. I was hoping for better.
Note* I have never mentioned this except VERY recently and only do so for clarity because I am beginning to see some attempts at revisionist history going on here to boost certain agendas being established recently.

Anyway back to more worthwhile discussion
Another factor involved here is just how that unarmed training model of cross-line work, turning and drawing through the waist to leave the weight centered and non dedicated coincides with how (many) Koryu cut with weapons-more particularly heavy weapons. Any movement with the hips leading- can become a dead, and overly- dedicated movement- antithetical to the requirements of mobility and power in many Koryu. Drawing with the waist "through" the groin to move the hips and legs and how to best connect to the spine and is of paramount importance for continuous movement while moving freely without unnecessary change. It is not the same movement as the one-line samurai walk that leaves people vulnerable in areas of Koryu combatives. Not the least of which is cutting with weapons all day and needing to move forward, backward, turning while cutting to both sides. While that type of spiraling is more simplistic to the body forms (expressed elsewhere) they are never-the less a first step in physical understanding of "change" and the use of power.
You cannot move well with weapons in the "single-line" model at all. It is no small wonder that you see the more modern derivatives; aikido, some DR, Iaido, Kendo, with their single step kata cutting from and moving from the hips in this supposed "one-line" Samurai model (see image at bottom of page and come back) This not the way a bushi moved in continuous cutting on a battlefield. The movement -expressed by that teacher here:
Quote:
Here an Edo period woodblock print depicts a samurai cutting down with naginata (a staff with a blade). Notice how the body is kept in line, the right arm coordinated with right side of the body and weight dropped into the cut -- a perfect example of the hitoemi principle. Also, notice how the body position parallels that of Okabayashi Sensei's sword cut shown above.
Is not as definitive as one would have you believe. And taking hints from a wood block print is probably not a very good idea at all for his self admitted re-invention of a form. It is worth noting that this understanding is right in keeping with Akuzawa's earlier teaching on left-to-left / right-to-right axis work and is most certainly NOT the way many Koryu move in practice and practical application. It is more of a modern re-creation or understanding probably gleaned from looking from the outside-in to try and imagine the mechanics that are involved in moving from the inside out.
Interestingly enough you can see some in Koryu utilizing this principle and not even realizing it and others teaching it, and still others teaching it as a macro of what they are "looking for" in a students movements while not being able to clearly define the mechanics to do so. It becomes a work in progress for the student to "find."
I've not read this being discussed anywhere either, and the idea was quite a surprise to some active experts in Koryu. But somehow, I am sure that certain people will show up a few years from now claiming to know that too, and to have been "discussing it" for years, and will tell me I got the information and a "recent" understanding of it ...from them. Not from training and teaching for twenty years.
Budo...ya gotta love it.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote