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Old 06-06-2009, 05:56 AM   #5
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
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Re: Ellis' post about cover-up and Ueshiba

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I objected to the word "conspiracy." That one or another writer slants history is not a conspiracy. That one or another shihan is dismissive or lies, is not a conspiracy. I went to Japan in 1976. I'd done aikido two years. I wanted to do Daito-ryu. Takeda was described as a not nice man, but in my mind, there was no doubt that he was as great or greater than Ueshiba. Daito-ryu was my goal. Until I saw it. What was presented publicly was a profound disappointment.
Well, conspiracy would be hard to prove. And I'll give that you had quite a bit more knowledge and experiences than me in that time frame. However, there are certain points that I will argue.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Two other points:
1. The real "cover-up" was enacted by Daito-ryu. If they had wanted the limelight, all they had to do was do what Ueshiba did - wow rich patrons and get sponsorship. They chose to be secretive. Look, when Sagawa states that until his latter years he didn't even teach his OWN students the real goods, is it any wonder that many would have a jaundiced eye towards DR.
Still doesn't explain how, here in the U.S., quite a few books and people "slanted" history to the point that Daito ryu had very little influence on Ueshiba's skills. It's hard to blame Daito ryu on that when many of these books and people fell under the authority of Kisshomaru at the time.

Granted, I agree with you about Daito Ryu being secretive and not grabbing the lime light.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
2. The aiki arts are rife with a tendency to denigrate each other - to deny others' validity or even existence. Examples?
How many events that you listed were after people started learning that Daito ryu really was a main influence on Ueshiba's skills, say mid 90s to now? I'm still convinced that the Daito ryu influence on Ueshiba was either downplayed greatly on purpose or actually was being covered up. Why get all the spiritual details right but miss out completely on the martial aspect? As someone pointed out to me in PM, one of my quotes above has incorrect info. Ueshiba didn't study Kito ryu, yet it was printed that he did.

If you use Stan's research as a pivot point, it seems quite a bit changed about Ueshiba's martial "history" from the 70s-80s to now.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
It's all high dudgeon over little. The reason "aiki" (internal training) has been little known has been
a. EIther Ueshiba didn't teach it or his students didn't learn it
b. Daito-ryu didn't present it publicly after Takeda, and, in fact, used a teaching procedure that ensured that few of their own students would progress with any speed.

Best
Ellis Amdur
Agreed.

Thanks,
Mark

Last edited by MM : 06-06-2009 at 05:59 AM.
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