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Old 05-21-2009, 08:58 AM   #81
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your comments and perspective.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I find it hard to believe that you would hold to this position? Perhaps it is just like option "D" that you posted. Something you thought to just throw out there that isn't your opinion, but somewhere, somehow, it could be true?
Sorry, not in this case...

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Going by articles and interviews, we see quite a few things that Takeda supposedly did that Ueshiba didn't show. For example, having someone grab a napkin or paper or whatever and throwing them. (I believe Sagawa has done this.) Having someone grab his (Takeda) neck and throwing them. Using his feet. (Kodo on film doing this). Where is Ueshiba doing these things? One of the few things that are common are some (not all) of the push tests.
Sorry to have to repeat myself from about a dozen or so other posts here on Aikiweb, alone, but this simply isn't the case. Repeating the idea that just because "you" haven't seen these things and/or that you don't know anyone else who has seen these things doesn't mean there aren't Aikidoka who can and are doing them and teaching the skills one would need to eventually be able to do them, too. I have personally seen them, felt them and don't find them to be anything outside of what a particular teacher might choose to share with any number of their senior students.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
In the realm of techniques, it's not hard to research the various schools of Daito ryu and see each using different techniques. The Takumakai supposedly catalogued both Takeda's techniques and Ueshiba's techniques. Looking at the whole, all the Daito ryu schools certainly seem to have quite a bit more techniques than Aikido.
Quite true. However, there are no techniques in Aikido, and I am not speaking of that in the way that Dan might in that with proper Aiki one doesn't really need techniques at all. Simply speaking the way of aiki has nothing to do with the use (application) of the principles of Aiki... in my opinion, I guess I should note...

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Takeda also taught sword. Ueshiba ... well, we know how that's been talked about.
Hmmm, there are lots of experts, certified in all sorts of things who are consistently outdone by so-called unqualified outsiders, or what have you. In any case, not having had the chance to face off with him, I am not saying anything about O-Sensei's sword skills, Are you???

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Fan? Takeda, yes. Ueshiba?
Huh...? I guess I am a fan of both

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
When I read your post and your point "A", it threw me for a loop. I really didn't understand how you could come to this "crystal clear" point in light of a lot of articles and interviews out there.
Let it be written, let it be true? Sorry, having read countless articles and documents, many with forced conclusions based upon misunderstanding, personal agendas and the like. Others, well meaning are lengthy diatribes put forth by overly-educated types who are simply hopeful to have an ever-expanding audience based upon the authoritative nature of their very well-written thesis. I find it easy to do so when there is overwhelmingly obvious information out there that is unfortunately most-often overlooked due to the inherently obvious nature of these very facts. I feel quite confident in saying that I am not the only one who sees these things, that there are quite a few senior people that do see these things and train and teach from such a perspective. Just because they don't publicly come out and write about it and just because it doesn't jibe with the currently held viewpoints of you, other senior practitioners or anyone from outside the art, once again does not make them wrong or these facts not any less true.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Speaking of Ueshiba knowing more than he taught. There are interviews talking about how Ueshiba stopped people in their tracks. I'm told it's a Daito ryu thing. But, I can't find any of Ueshiba's students doing this. And it's sort of an unspoken thing that Ueshiba pared down the Daito ryu syllabus when he created aikido.
Please see my previous point (#2), above.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Perhaps Takeda never taught *all* that he knew. That's certainly a valid theory. However, in light of what Takeda *did* teach to others, it isn't hard to see that Ueshiba knew more than he taught.
...all I can say is WOW and ask you to please re-read my previous post over and over again with an open mind.

Best in training to all...

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I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.