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Old 05-17-2009, 01:23 AM   #41
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I understand that they wanted to learn something from him and it was the only way to learn by feeling, as O sensei didn't explain techniques from technical point of view.
Greetings and apologies for my extended absence from the boards. My own experience tells me that this is not entirely correct. Abe Sensei mentioned quite often how O-Sensei would specifically provide him with instructions in this subject or that. It brings up the point of what "student" means and just who one's "teacher" actually is. Reflecting on thirty years of training I can say that I am a student of the martial arts without reservation. I might even be so presumptuous as to say I am a student of this teacher or that teacher... Of course, putting aside for the moment how diligent and loyal I might actually be, it is the individual Teacher's decision whom they actually view as their own student, and to whom they view themselves as their Teacher.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
However I don't believe it was intention of O sensei to teach his students all these subtilities after IIWW.At that point of time he wasn't interested in physical aspect of practice anymore.
Again, I must disagree based upon what I have been told. Abe Sensei, being a personal student of the Founder after 1952, mentioned very specific instances of where O-Sensei was very interested in the physicality of movement, the methodology of progress (Misogi-no-Gyo & Kotodama-no-Gyo) and the specific mechanisms of spiritual growth and both Aikido's dependency on
and its integration within both the visualizations and conception of waza through Chinkon Kishin-no-Gyo, specifically.

My own sense tells me that while many students claim O-Sensei as their teacher, he in fact made no such declarations, public, silent or otherwise about 99 % of those same individuals as it related to his intention to transmission directly his art. I asked Abe Sensei about this specific thing and he did give me a list of very specific individuals who, in his mind at least were recipients of said transmission to some extent or another. I have my own opinions about the details of this based upon what I was told, but since it flies in the face of what a popular and supposed "historical expert" who refuses to debate his ill-founded conclusions and those who often quote him (in this very thread, in fact) as some sort of prophet and his works as some sort of prophet of biblical texts, I will keep them to myself for the time being. Too bad for those who find it much easier to accept the printed words of someone else rather than do their own research and challenge even the currently-held opinions and theories.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I think you are trying here to develop kata-like practice (aka 'ideal form' of both waza and ukemi). This is a very clear contradiction to the idea of controlling an attacker from the moment when idea of attack is raised in his head.You still make clear difference between nage and uke. This makes impossible the spontanous execution of the techniques even after 50 years of intensive practice. If you don't go through this rather primary dualism, you will never be able to FEEL the unity of the World and communicate with Kami.
Hmmmm... two points come to mind

First - on the level of "doing" aikido, while already a misunderstanding of the art form, but certainly the highest level most will ever reach, if you are trying to control an attacker from the moment the "idea" of attack comes into their head, as opposed to being at a place where you can keep the person from even having that idea, than dualism in terms of having to deal with conflict is all you will ever know.

Second - None of this has anything to do with feeling unity as there is no feeling when there is unity. When there is unity (everything all at once) there is no you, no kami nor any communication possible between two seemingly disparate things that cannot coexist when existence itself does not come into being in such a state of no state.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
It was a very simple filter to reject casual students, and keep only serious ones. You are still not able to provide a single prove that O sensei taught ukemi('correct' or even ANY ukemi) to his students.
I don't believe S. Takeda taught ukemi to his students neither LOL
This may be only peripheral to the discussion, or perhaps there is no discussion here at all, but there are actual films of O-Sensei taking ukemi. One can only guess as to what his purpose was in taking ukemi in the first place. One might surmise that he was demonstrating something to either the nage (at the time) anyone present watching, along with anyone who via the films would be looking to dissect ad nauseum... O-Sensei was intimately aware of both microphones and cameras, the latter to which he most assuredly played knowing very well what would be left as a model for perpetuity.

In any case, coming from a dojo where ukemi was not only stressed as a methodology of both growth and progress, the learning of proper ukemi has a realistic function relating to limiting the level of injury one might sustain at any given time on the mat.... This may not have been something stressed via his Daito-Ryu experiences. However, as he changed his art form to reflect a broader scope of goals, perhaps even limiting the injury of one's training partner, as new and radical of an idea this may have seemed at the time (please read any amount of sarcasm here as makes you feel comfortable, or not, as you need) may have held some level of importance in his Dojo. I would be curious to know what the old-time, senior deshi of Iwama and Shingu might have to say about such a notion as this...

Okay, back to my corner now.

Best to all who seek the way...

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 05-17-2009 at 01:31 AM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.