Hope to hook up some day
I'll try to keep my answers relevant to the thread.
and if all of the confusion between one and the other could be "magically ended in about a minute and a half in person," why didn't they?
Of course there are recognizable forms. But there is a reason why those who know always discuss aiki as being formless. There is no confusion.
And the better you get at the later the less you really care about the former. I think you need to review your history. The "they" you are referring to- being Takeda and Ueshiba? They not only managed to do just that- they themselves differentiated the two constantly to the point of talking about them as separate things and stressing the difference. Other unique DR teachers managed to pull of some VERY stunning displays of power sans waza as well. But I don't want to talk about that anymore.
If you were having a bit of fun with me over the "settled in a minute and half"
comment regarding debates about aiki with those who focus on waza and discount aiki's immediate applicability and power? You're right. That comment wasn't accurate...it usually doesn't take that long.
And I'm not going to talk about that anymore either.
BTW, I think it perfectly possible to pass along the "concept" bereft of the content as well. One need not look farther than other related "internal arts" to see that that is possible.
I agree completely with you. But I think you're making an addtional or separate point over the one Peter was making or alluding to and I expanded on.
1. We're are not talking about your example of student having someone explain those concepts and then expound on them- framed in context to their training method along with principles in-use which the student can't do yet as he may be just learning.
2. We are talking about men from another country reading about concepts a) they were not told about, b) were never explained to them c) were never framed in context to their direct training....and then having to try and figure out what that person meant and make it applicable...in another language.
Make sense? I think it's a different set of circumstances than the "educated idiots" we occasionally run into in the ICMA and so many other arts.
In closing and going back to aiki as a method distinct from waza. Stop and think, many of Takedas and Ueshiba's students were koryu people, military people, judoka,...men who had experience and exposure to some pretty significant heavyweights.
To my knowledge what impressed those educated men most about Takeda and Ueshiba....wasn't technique. It was their aiki power, stated over and over. and that came from the body method-"the concepts" referred to here in our discussion. The "concepts" either rarely if ever talked about publicly, or as Peter so clearly demonstrated....that can get "Translated" into uselessness.