Questions like this don't accomplish much. That's why talking about this stuff is almost impossible in my opinion.
Actually conversations like this have accompished a great deal. Most importantly in separating those who rely on years of technical skills and waza, from those with some marginal parts and pieces of internal skill who have great waza, to those who have a deeper teaching to impart who are powerful in a different way and have great waza. Moreover they have generated hundreds of people going out to meet and have what did you call it?....DIRECT experiences to impart -instead of speculation-
......about what training in these skills as a separate body of work and what these men can actually deliver with teaching a body of skills that is deep.
So while I appreciate your comments about Mike and I, and your asking people to consider what you believe is a wiser more "open" mindset , I find some of your earlier comments a bit condesending. Perhaps you should consider that you are talking to men with decades of experience.
Interestingly enough, many are comparing THOSE experiences with feeling You, Howard, Kiyama, Okomoto, Don, Ushiro, Saotome, Vlad, Robikof, Some Gracies, several serious ICMA masters like Wang Xiaowang, Wang Haijun, Luo Dexiu Lou Chengde with Mike, Ark, me
I should include those that are combining that with experience in grappling
I think your admonition in your earlier post of asking people to listen to your DIRECT experience rather than speculation is rather well met. Good advice.
I have been an unabashed supporter of that for years. You might want to consider just who you're talking too. You're talking to men who have been doing what you yourself are advocating and who are quite experienced themselves. Funny thing that.
No one has come back all hept up about the techniques of this or that art or guy.Seems they are smarter than that Toby. It seems these guys for some wierd reason were impressed with a teaching, not more waza. Most have seen and felt thousands of waza are quite jaded. Instead they were impressed by a teaching of body skills that was so deep and so different that it surprised them. Why? It was out of their experience.
So, I dunno, maybe using your own logic...they...deserve to be listened to. As they have already taken your advice. Further, they've gone where YOU haven't yet.
I dunno, just following your logic and advice. I mean I am meeting with men with some very serious rank and experience. I think the debate and those in it deserves more respect than that, no matter which side you're on.
I continue to encourge everyone to go out and feel everyone they can. I am quite comfortable with giving that advice. It does everyone a world of good.
Concerning Joe. I watched him take apart a quite experienced BJJ style grappler once without even breaking a sweat. The poor guy had no idea what was being done to him and this was before Joe ever heard of Systema. All he'd done at this point was some western wrestling, kendo and Yanagi ryu. It was a very humbling experience for the guy who's father & teacher was an early and quite accomplished student of Rorion and Rickson Gracie.
I feel like I stepped back in time.
Waza eh? Speed, power, heaviness and beating grapplers? Ok.
I know a number of guys with grappling experience having success against many other grapplers. Doing so with jujutsu waza new or old is just another day at the office. So what? Know what I think? That doesn't give them a ticket to the conversations we have been having here...from day one.
Teaching people to generate power and absorb loads, to draw in and capture and knowing how to train the body to support itself in opposites, retaining a central equilibrium and what supports what and how, and how to move with that retained balance with power in your hands with no wind-up, and doing so in a much more fluid and faster mode of moving...does.
All of the latest turn in the discussions to technique and handling people with waza says nothing to me. We each have decades of training with friends who are capable men at what they do and who handle other MAers. It's just more martial art talk to me, Why not include Randy into a discussion of internals he fast, grabbing him feels like a gorilla and is meaningless in this type of discussion.